Versatile vs ?All around? hunting dog.

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nugbuk

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What is ?Versatile? and what is ?All Around? hunting dog?

From NAVHDA website ( http://www.navhda.org ):
The North American Versatile Hunting Dog Association defines versatility as "the dog that is bred and trained to dependably hunt and point game, to retrieve on both land and water, and to track wounded game on both land and water."
~ NAVHDA Aims, Programs, Test Rules

Is that what most of us define as good ?All Around? dog? If it is then here is list of breeds recognized by NAVHDA as Versatile:
BI ? Bracco Italiano
BA - Braque D?auvergne
BB - Braque Bu Bourbonnais
BF ? Braque Francais
BS ? Brittany
CF - Cesky Fousek
ES ? English Setter
FP ? French Spaniel
GL ? German Longhaired Pointer
GS ? German Shorthaired Pointer
GW ? German Wirehaired Pointer
GO ? Gordon Setter
IR ? Irish Red & White Setter
IS ? Irish Setter
LM ? Large Munsterlander
PT ? Pointer
PO ? Portuguese Pointer
PP ? Pudelpointer
SH ? Slovensky Hrubosrsty Stavac
SM ? Small Munsterlander
SP ? Spinone
ST ? Stichelhaar
VI ? Vizsla
WM ? Weimarainer
GR ? Wirehaired Pointing Griffon
WV ? Wirehaired Vizsla
~ NAVHDA Aims, Programs, Test Rules


Please not that there are NO retrievers included in that list.
Those breeds were created to be VERSATILE.

Versatile dog is asked to do more than one thing. Probably, specialized breeds will do things a little better than versatile (i.e. Labradors will be better in the retriever trials, English Pointers will be better in horseback quail trials), but versatile dogs will do it all.

Example: DD (Deutch Drahthaar) was created by cross breading Stichelhaar, Pudelpointer, Griffon, and the Deutsch-Kurzhaar ( http://www.vdd-gna.org/history.htm ).
Please not that I?m not saying German Wirehaired Pointer which evolved from DD. Here is article http://www.drahthaar.com/articles/different.html

Another example: Deutsch-Kurzhaar (known here as German Shorthaired Pointer one of the most popular hunting breeds). To create this breed ? ? hunter-dog breeders used available descendants of the Spanish Pointer (German Bird Dogs), certain German tracking hounds, the English Foxhound, and eventually the English Pointer ??. (info from http://www.nadkc.org/pages/clubinfo.htm)

Is there something else what defines ?All Around? hunting dog?
What do you think?
 
Excellent post Nug, you do realize this info you have provided has solidified my decision on my next dog.
I will eventually have to buy an ugly dog :D
 
The reason there are no retrievers in there is because NAVDHA is a pointing group. The word is point. That is the most important consideration of Navdha. In the retriever world the most important is finding and retriever shot game. All else in both worlds is pure luxury.
.I would like to see a tread on which is the top pointer. Seriously, as I am not an expert in that field. Also one on flushers.
Redclub
 
Redclub,
I have to agree that NAVHDA emphasizes pointing as part of versatility. I?m not familiar with flushing clubs and their regulations. I do have experience with flushers. My father had spaniel and I have hunted over him a lot. Flushers are great hunters!!!!!
Point of my post is versatility of the breeds.
I do have DD now.
And here are some of the tasks asked those dogs to perform:
- Field work: finding bird, point, track wounded game (rabbits and birds), retrieve
- Water work: independent search, track wounded game, blind retrieve
- Blood Tracking: finding killed animal (deer, boar, red stag etc.) by following blood track and ignoring healthy animals.
- In Germany those dogs were used for small predator control (foxes etc.). But they can not show any aggression to any human or other dog.
Isn?t this is a versatility?
 
Drahthaar or German Wirehaired Pointer ? Is there a difference? IMO. no just because a dog is trained a different way does not make it another breed IMO. :D German Wirehaired Pointers. aka Deutsch Drahthaar (doych drot-harr) :D
 
To maybe add a little to RWBinMD response about no diference in a german wirehair pointer and a drahthaar. Forty six years of differnet breed standards as nugbuk has said has made difference between the two breeds, but as the name implies the german wirehair pointer as the has concentrated on pointing more. I am not saying that is bad it is just what a person prefers. The drahthaar is much more versatile in that it also does water work, works fur, tracks wounded game and points game. The german utility test (numerous german breeds run it) is so diverse it takes two days to complete it and that is only a 4 dog group. trying to prep for it is a task because you must have the dog working well on all aspects in one test instead of just one test for maybe field work then go to another test later for water work and so on. JMO :)
 
versdog said:
To maybe add a little to RWBinMD response about no diference in a german wirehair pointer and a drahthaar. Forty six years of differnet breed standards as nugbuk has said has made difference between the two breeds.
Click to expand...

Some Drahthaars are imported from Germany and then registered into the AKC. as german wirehair pointers.
 
Only imported dogs are allowed to be registered into the AKC, all AKC Wirehairs are from imported bloodlines the original german wirehairs did not come from the United States or they would be called US wirehairs. None of the Drahthaars that I have could be registered into the AKC. The VDD will not allow an AKC wirehair to be used in breeding in the VDD. Other differences are the AKC allows a dog that falls outside of the breed standard or have a genentic issue to be bred, no penalties are enforced. The VDD will not allow a dog that has a genetic problem to be bred (bad bite, gun shy). If the breeder breeds a dog that has had its pedigree marked "Forbidden for Breeding", the litter cannot be registered as a VDD litter. In addition to that the Breeder would have to pay a fine before any other pups from his kennel could registered as VDD dogs again. This is another difference. The VDD feels that the Dog should be eliminated from the gene pool no matter how good the dog is in whatever aspect. The AKC Breeder may look at the dog and say he has tremendous talent (physical problem) or conformation (problem maybe gunshy) and decide that he has a dog that he can work around the problem with. Again I am not saying either way is wrong just your point of veiw.

If you have a breed of dog that will blood track deer, points upland game tracks rabbits and furbearers, does water retreves and tests the breed for that, you then have another breed that does not desire a dog that will work fur and puts emphasis on upland work and water work and tests for that. You have breeds that have chosen different paths, and continue getting further apart. Neither path is wrong, but definately different paths, it is just what the owner wants. I am not trying to get into a P*ssing contest :) just trying to point out the differences that i see.
 
versdog said:
Only imported dogs are allowed to be registered into the AKC, all AKC Wirehairs are from imported bloodlines the original german wirehairs did not come from the United States or they would be called US wirehairs. None of the Drahthaars that I have could be registered into the AKC. The VDD will not allow an AKC wirehair to be used in breeding in the VDD. Other differences are the AKC allows a dog that falls outside of the breed standard or have a genentic issue to be bred, no penalties are enforced. The VDD will not allow a dog that has a genetic problem to be bred (bad bite, gun shy). If the breeder breeds a dog that has had its pedigree marked "Forbidden for Breeding", the litter cannot be registered as a VDD litter. In addition to that the Breeder would have to pay a fine before any other pups from his kennel could registered as VDD dogs again. This is another difference. The VDD feels that the Dog should be eliminated from the gene pool no matter how good the dog is in whatever aspect. The AKC Breeder may look at the dog and say he has tremendous talent (physical problem) or conformation (problem maybe gunshy) and decide that he has a dog that he can work around the problem with. Again I am not saying either way is wrong just your point of veiw.

If you have a breed of dog that will blood track deer, points upland game tracks rabbits and furbearers, does water retreves and tests the breed for that, you then have another breed that does not desire a dog that will work fur and puts emphasis on upland work and water work and tests for that. You have breeds that have chosen different paths, and continue getting further apart. Neither path is wrong, but definately different paths, it is just what the owner wants. I am not trying to get into a P*ssing contest :) just trying to point out the differences that i see.
Click to expand...


Man you drahthaar guys are a tough bunch! :D



While there is much I do not agree with in your post.I think the biggest difference is in the groups of people VDD/AKC not the dogs. One group refers to the dog in german and the other in english :lol: :lol: :lol:


My point is a lab is a lab whether or not he/she hunts or not.
And there are GERMAN WIREHAIRS that can
Search for, locate and point upland game
Work both feather and fur with equal skill
Retrieve water fowl
Be a close-working, easily trained gun dog
Be able to track and locate wounded game
Be fearless when hunting 'sharp' game such as fox
Be a devoted companion and pet; and
Be a watchdog for its owners family and property.
 
English Springer Spaniels are Field Trialed differently here in the States vs. acorss the Pond. In Europe, you are responsible for ALL game on the course, fur or feathers. Here in the States, the dog will get thrown out of the trial if it chases a rabbit.....

For Wild Pheasants, I really like a well trained ESS. There isn't much that will get past one!
 

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