youth shooter what's the laest BH209 amount

[atjurhs]

Hi guys,

I took my son out today and we had some trouble shooting BH209 from our CVA rifles. After a little help (here on this forum, and THANKS so much to those guys) I think we will be good to go the next time out.

So I have another question concerning what would be a starting point (minimal amount) of BH209 for him to shoot? Here's the info....

12year old boy, about 65lbs, very accurate with a AR-15 556

CVA Optima 50cal sitting atop a tripod (so he doesn't have to hold up the weight of the muzzy).

180grain PRBullets Polymer Tips with the right sabot to match it up to 50cal bore.

I can always add more BH209 powder but what's the minimum the gun can shoot or may ask that he should shoot?

Thanks!

Todd

 

[Squeeze]

you shoot it and find a minimum that groups acceptible. Recoil is only an issue at the range. While hunting you either dont notice it, or dont realize till later. I know with my sidelock guns, they will have at least 2 sweet spots for powder. one with a higher charge, and then again at about 1/3 or so (this is pretty common on the traditional forums and brought about by guys wanting to squirrel hunt with their deer rifles) the range for the smaller load will be a lot less. Ive never seen the study done to a inline, but id bet you could find an acceptible load. on another side, the gun probably wont kick more than a 20 ga shotgun at full charge. and he should be able to handle the charge fine. Maybe not for an extended range day, but who hasnt come home from shooting a time or ten with a purple shoulder. My shotgun slug guns kick way worse than any of my muzzle loaders.

 

[bestill]

Weve done several youth hunts with children from 10 to 15 and typically practice with22 caliber scoped gun to practice target hold and trigger work.
We use 60 gr by volume blackhorn with Barnes250 tez effective range of 100 yds and we try to keep youth shots under60 yds.
A reduced load and 180 bullet will have limited terminal performance on game and blackhorn tends to like pressure and 250 plus bullet weight.

 

[LarryBud]

Just yesterday I was shooting 180 grain XTPs with 90 grains of BH 209.

The first few shots were so light I thought there was something wrong with my load. Plus, the price is right with 100 bullets for about $20. I was using a 45 cal but the 40 /50 sabots work just fine.

I was using this load for cheap fun but it would be a great youth load.

 

[Anonymous]

Weve done several youth hunts with children from 10 to 15 and typically practice with22 caliber scoped gun to practice target hold and trigger work.
We use 60 gr by volume blackhorn with Barnes250 tez effective range of 100 yds and we try to keep youth shots under60 yds.
A reduced load and 180 bullet will have limited terminal performance on game and blackhorn tends to like pressure and 250 plus bullet weight.

Millons of deer have been harvested by a round-shaped 177 grain roundball. I purchased the 180 QTs for my 12 year old and 60 grains of my FFF blackpowder will be a nice load out to 100 yards, even more accurate than a .177 roundball. That is one flat-shooting bullet and it's lead content and tip is intended for nice penetration and non-exit, unlike it's harder brother named Dead Center.

Where this 180 begins to fail is heavy powder charge on a power ignitor like Blackhorn /777. So much like the sabotless Powerbelts operating under high powder volumes, you cannot push the light-weight 180s into high speeds. Believe it or not, American Pioneer, Goex or Pyrodex powder would be best for the getting the highest speeds with 180s. Weaker ignition and also what I like most, softer recoil, accompany it.

 

[ronlaughlin]

.....I can always add more BH209 powder but what's the minimum the gun can shoot or may ask that he should shoot?

Thanks!

Todd

First, i don't claim to know the answer. However, here lately i have been playing around with 200g bullets, and light loads of Blackhorn. What has worked more than once, is 70g of Blackhorn pushing the 200g Shockwave. Interestingly, this load is quite accurate out of my Optima. Recoil is quite mild. The sabot i have been using is too loose for my rifle, but still, ignition has been very consistent. By loose, i mean i can push the bullet all the way down the barrel with one finger behind the ramrod. Been using W209 primers.

 

[ronlaughlin]

...... Believe it or not, American Pioneer, Goex or Pyrodex powder would be best for the getting the highest speeds with 180s. Weaker ignition and also what I like most, softer recoil, accompany it.

It is physically impossible for 'highest speeds' to produce 'softer recoil'. Any load of any powder, that produces the highest speeds, will always result in more recoil, than a load that produces lower speeds, plain, and simple.

 

[atjurhs]

He is accurate to 100yds with an AR-15 shoot 223rounds, so I'm not at all worried about him being able to hit a target if he's got the correct load. He also knows all the marksmanship basics and safety steps and procedures as outlined in the USMC Rifle Marksmanship Manual (and taught by me with 14years of service). So the question is what load?

a 20gauge shotgun has too much kick for him, he's just too small in size for that size firearm, maybe a 410 idk.

anyways yesterday he was shooting with a 180grain slug and sabot and 1 White Hot pellet and 20grains of BH209 atop of that (didn't know not to mix propellants, but now I do) for a total of 70grains of propellant, and he was hitting a two inch spot at 60yds no problem.

Will the same 70grains of BH209 work fine at 100yds? Could he drop down to 60grains with the 180grain slug and sabot?

Summarized down to it's essence, the crux of the question is what would be the minimum amount of BH209 with a 180grain slug to consequently hit a 2inch spot at 100yds?

 

[ronlaughlin]

As i wrote before, i don't know the answer to your question. What i do know is, the 200g Shockwave pushed by 70g Blackhorn is accurate in my Optima. It can be used to hit a 2" circle at 100 yard from my rifle. It has been tried several times, several sessions, this past week. That is all i know. It seems i am that guy that people are referring to, when they say, "he doesn't know much".

 

[atjurhs]

I know it's not a linear ratio between the amount of propellant and the weight of the slug, but a 200grain slug with 70grains of BH209 for 2inch spots at 100yds, would seem to indicate that a configuration of 185grain slug with 65grains would not be a bad starting point.

Thanks guys!

 

[derfhunter]

Could he drop down to 60grains with the 180grain slug and sabot?

IMO using less powder and lighter bullets will work against the progressive burning properties of BH209.
I think BH209 performs better with heavier, tighter fitting bullets which keeps the pressure up, causing a more complete burn.
Can you do it, probably but I would use another powder if I wanted lighter recoil than a 200gr bullet and 70gr of BH209.
I am not disputing anyone's results, just expressing my opinion.

 

[Squeeze]

that .32 knight i had built is an anomaly against most BH theorys, It shoots great with 15 grains BH and a patched roundball. I CAN say I have shot light loads in a TC triumph at the range. I remember 40 grns of goex 2f shot very well with a sierra 260 grn to 50 yards. I dont think I shot it to 100..or just dont remember. but each gun is different. You pretty much have to experiment for yourself. BUT if your looking for super light loads, your also saying super short range. Myself and many kids I know all started with a 20 single shot at 10. If he is too small for the recoil of a 20 ga.... Maybe you just have to stuff potatoes in him for another year. I was never a fan of a .410 for a youth gun. IMHO, a .410 is more of a gentlemans gun, looking for a bit more challenge afield. its MUCH more limited in range and pattern than a 20. the 20 will have a better spread, allowing a youth to hit a few that would have been near misses with the .410. I was always of the mindset that a good single hammergun is the safest and best first gun. I bought mine as soon as I got a license. after I outgrew it, It went to my boat, and became the shark shooting stick for years. It was always abused, and always reliable. Almost 40 years later I STILL have it. It did spend a few years here and there under different ownership when a nephew or friend had a kid who could use it, but always under the stipulation I get it back eventually.. LOL sometimes it took, good ole uncle to buy them the next step up on a birthday or christmas to get the return. But its all good to me

 

[ronlaughlin]

Could he drop down to 60grains with the 180grain slug and sabot?

IMO using less powder and lighter bullets will work against the progressive burning properties of BH209.
I think BH209 performs better with heavier, tighter fitting bullets which keeps the pressure up, causing a more complete burn.
Can you do it, probably but I would use another powder if I wanted lighter recoil than a 200gr bullet and 70gr of BH209.
I am not disputing anyone's results, just expressing my opinion.

Interestingly, i was using a crush rib sabot, which was very very loose in the Optima. It could be pushed down the barrel using just one finger. Myself, i cannot imagine a worse scenario. Ignition seems to be quite consistent, judging from the group sizes at 100 yard. My guess is the 180g bullet in a proper fitting sabot, could see even better results.

 

[ronlaughlin]

I know it's not a linear ratio between the amount of propellant and the weight of the slug, but a 200grain slug with 70grains of BH209 for 2inch spots at 100yds, would seem to indicate that a configuration of 185grain slug with 65grains would not be a bad starting point.

Thanks guys!

Makes sense to me.

 

[BuckDoeHunter]

Will this be a range load or deer hunting load?

If range load, then 60gr of BH209 and that 180 bullet will be just fine.

If a deer hunting load, that combo is not quite enough for 100 yds to be sure of a quick/clean harvest.

 

[atjurhs]

with the PR Bullets blue sabots, there is a pretty good snug push down the barrell, I'm sure he's getting a good seal

sadly deer season is over, so by next season I expect he'll be ready for a hotter load...

thanks again guys,

Todd

 

[tpcollins]

I wanted to use BH209 in my grandson's LK-II so I use about 8 grains by weight of Triple 7 down the bore first, and then 50 rains by volume on top. The #11 percussion ignites it just fine pushing a 155gr Barnes X-TAC 10mm bullet in a blue sabot just over 1400 fps. Very light recoil but he's limited to 50 yard shots and we're actually set up for 30 - he's 7.