Breech Plug stuck on Thompson Black Diamond

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Breech Plug stuck on Thompson Black Diamond

Postby wpshooter » Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:10 am

I just purchased a used Thompson Black Diamond Extended Range.

Outside of rifle is in really great shape, no rust pitting, etc.

However, it appears that the rifle has not been cleaned after its last shooting session.

I have cleaned everything up including the barrel (from the muzzle end) and everything looks great, however, I have not so far been able to get the breech plug out of the gun. The 209 adapter came off of the breech plug just fine.

I am now in the process of soaking the breech plug with some KROIL pored down the barrel - have end of plug blocked.

How long do you think it might take the Kroil to possibly loosen the plug so that I might be able to turn it out ?

I have the flat 2 ended wrench (one that fits onto the plug head and is perpendicular to the barrel - NOT the one that fits up thru the back of the receiver) that originally came with these rifles to try to get the plug out with.

Is there any lubricant that might possibly be better than Kroil ?

Thanks.
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Postby Dutch » Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:23 am

I have never had a stuck breech plug, but I have had good luck with a product called PB Blaster. It penetrates and helps loosen the bolt or nut. Sometimes it takes a couple of days, applying it multiple times, before the fastener can be removed.

I use it on a steel framed bicycle and it did not take the paint off so I suspect it won't harm the barrel.
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Postby Edwardamason » Sat Oct 27, 2012 10:13 am

Soaking in Kroil is a good idea.

Are you trying to remove the breech plug with the action still in the stock? If so get it out of the stock and into a vise. This will give you more leverage.

A electric impact wrench will help greatly to remove one.

IF those two means do not work Smack it with a impact socket pretty hard and a extension.

If that does not work its time to break out some heat. Heat up the underbelly of the barrel till it gets a bit warm. I generally will stick the entire barrel and action in the freezer for a few hours and then quickly get it to the bench and then heat just the underbelly of the barrel up and then they usually just fall right out.

Ive never had one I could not get out using these methods.

Good luck.
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Postby wpshooter » Sat Oct 27, 2012 10:29 am

Edwardamason wrote:Soaking in Kroil is a good idea.

Are you trying to remove the breech plug with the action still in the stock? If so get it out of the stock and into a vise. This will give you more leverage.

A electric impact wrench will help greatly to remove one.

IF those two means do not work Smack it with a impact socket pretty hard and a extension.

If that does not work its time to break out some heat. Heat up the underbelly of the barrel till it gets a bit warm. I generally will stick the entire barrel and action in the freezer for a few hours and then quickly get it to the bench and then heat just the underbelly of the barrel up and then they usually just fall right out.

Ive never had one I could not get out using these methods.

Good luck.


Thanks for your reply.

Yes, I have taken it out of the stock BUT unfortunately, I do not have a vise. Might have to make a trip over to my brother-in-law but I think I am going to let it soak another night and give it another try tomorrow.

I have now taken the bolt out of the back of it and ran a socket and extension up to the plug and I still can not get it to turn BUT that was with it out of the stock. After I let it soak a bit more, I might put it back in the stock and give it a try with the socket & extension on the plug. Don't way to try turning it too hard and mess up the form of the stock.

I don't have a full size freezer and I don't think that it will fit into the freezer part of the frig.

Do you think that a hair dryer set on HIGH would be enough heat to make it free up ?

I am sort of hesitant about using heat because I don't want to mess up the finish. The bluing on this gun looks like it just came out of the factory. I know it is a ML but I am very picky with all of my firearms.

Thanks.
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Postby Hornet22savage » Sat Oct 27, 2012 11:09 am

I have never used Kroil however if you dump it out and add the preziously mentioned PB Blaster and let it soak for a day or two I imagine it will come out. PB is a great product for freeing up rusted and stuck things.
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Postby sabotloader » Sat Oct 27, 2012 11:24 am

Shoot! I am really behing and old fashioned - I just use boiling water...
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Postby Edwardamason » Sat Oct 27, 2012 11:29 am

wpshooter wrote:
Edwardamason wrote:Soaking in Kroil is a good idea.

Are you trying to remove the breech plug with the action still in the stock? If so get it out of the stock and into a vise. This will give you more leverage.

A electric impact wrench will help greatly to remove one.

IF those two means do not work Smack it with a impact socket pretty hard and a extension.

If that does not work its time to break out some heat. Heat up the underbelly of the barrel till it gets a bit warm. I generally will stick the entire barrel and action in the freezer for a few hours and then quickly get it to the bench and then heat just the underbelly of the barrel up and then they usually just fall right out.

Ive never had one I could not get out using these methods.

Good luck.


Thanks for your reply.

Yes, I have taken it out of the stock BUT unfortunately, I do not have a vise. Might have to make a trip over to my brother-in-law but I think I am going to let it soak another night and give it another try tomorrow.

I have now taken the bolt out of the back of it and ran a socket and extension up to the plug and I still can not get it to turn BUT that was with it out of the stock. After I let it soak a bit more, I might put it back in the stock and give it a try with the socket & extension on the plug. Don't way to try turning it too hard and mess up the form of the stock.

I don't have a full size freezer and I don't think that it will fit into the freezer part of the frig.

Do you think that a hair dryer set on HIGH would be enough heat to make it free up ?

I am sort of hesitant about using heat because I don't want to mess up the finish. The bluing on this gun looks like it just came out of the factory. I know it is a ML but I am very picky with all of my firearms.

Thanks.


I doubt you are getting enough leverage just trying to hold it with your hands. . I bet once you get it up in a vise with the socket and extension its gonna free up.

I doubt a hair dryer is going to produce enough heat. Maybe a heat gun. You could try some really really hot water just don't get any on the plug. You do not want to heat the plug up too. You are wanting to expand the barrel while keeping the plug as cool as possible. Heating on the underbelly of the ML in the area UNDER the stock with the torch is the area I was speaking of heating. NOT the top so it will not distort the finish. You just have to be careful.

Good luck.
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Postby Edwardamason » Sat Oct 27, 2012 11:53 am

sabotloader wrote:Shoot! I am really behing and old fashioned - I just use boiling water...


That works up to a point.

Ive had people bring me breech plugs that have had BP seized up and rusted up for years to the point where nothing short of heat and expansion is going to get the job done. In most cases the barrel is is gone by this point anyways but you really never know till you get the BP out so its really the first step in determining if a barrel replacement is necessary.
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Postby wpshooter » Sat Oct 27, 2012 12:24 pm

sabotloader wrote:Shoot! I am really behing and old fashioned - I just use boiling water...


Do you pour boiling water down the muzzle end (with the breach end plugged up) or do you dip the whole back end of the barrel and receiver in boiling water ?

Wouldn't dipping the whole gun in boiling water for more than just a few seconds tend to ruin the finish on your gun ?

Thanks.
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Postby sabotloader » Sat Oct 27, 2012 1:21 pm

wpshooter wrote:
sabotloader wrote:Shoot! I am really behing and old fashioned - I just use boiling water...


Do you pour boiling water down the muzzle end (with the breach end plugged up) or do you dip the whole back end of the barrel and receiver in boiling water ?

Wouldn't dipping the whole gun in boiling water for more than just a few seconds tend to ruin the finish on your gun ?

Thanks.



I remove the trigger and/or the scope - also remove the nippe if it will come out. Boil up a pot of water deep enough to submerge the action in. When it is boiling submerge the action in the water for several minutes - pouring boiling water down the barrel as it is heating is also a good thing.

After letting heat for a couple of minutes remove the action and try the plug. Might have to try a couple times.

But Edw is maybe correct if the plug is rusted firmly in place.

The hot water should not bother the finish at all... it will remove any protective oils so you are going to want to re-oil everything after drying.
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Postby LarryBud » Sat Oct 27, 2012 2:40 pm

sabotloader wrote:Shoot! I am really behing and old fashioned - I just use boiling water...



My method of choice. Has worked for me in the past.
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Re: Breech Plug stuck on Thompson Black Diamond

Postby cayuga » Sat Oct 27, 2012 5:06 pm

wpshooter wrote:I just purchased a used Thompson Black Diamond Extended Range.

Outside of rifle is in really great shape, no rust pitting, etc.

However, it appears that the rifle has not been cleaned after its last shooting session.

I have cleaned everything up including the barrel (from the muzzle end) and everything looks great, however, I have not so far been able to get the breech plug out of the gun. The 209 adapter came off of the breech plug just fine.

I am now in the process of soaking the breech plug with some KROIL pored down the barrel - have end of plug blocked.

How long do you think it might take the Kroil to possibly loosen the plug so that I might be able to turn it out ?

I have the flat 2 ended wrench (one that fits onto the plug head and is perpendicular to the barrel - NOT the one that fits up thru the back of the receiver) that originally came with these rifles to try to get the plug out with.

Is there any lubricant that might possibly be better than Kroil ?

Thanks.



The very first day I owned my Black Diamond XR I got the breech plug stick. It was so stuck that the cheap tool they give you to take it out, I broke.

I took the rifle outside and poured boiling water down it. I used a tea kettle. And I just kept filling it and letting it drain until I had that barrel really hot. Then I threw it in a vice. I took a ratchet and a deep socket and got it on the breech plug after taking out the 209 nipple.

When I had a good solid grasp on it, I struck the handle of the ratchet sharply and quickly with a hammer. This is to jolt the breech. Then I got on the ratchet and was able to turn it out.

In the future, ever ten shots, take the plunger out, reach in there with a ratchet and deep socket and give that breech plug a turn back and fourth. Not to much to take it out. Just to make sure it breaks free.
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Re: Breech Plug stuck on Thompson Black Diamond

Postby wpshooter » Sat Oct 27, 2012 5:15 pm

cayuga wrote:
wpshooter wrote:I just purchased a used Thompson Black Diamond Extended Range.

Outside of rifle is in really great shape, no rust pitting, etc.

However, it appears that the rifle has not been cleaned after its last shooting session.

I have cleaned everything up including the barrel (from the muzzle end) and everything looks great, however, I have not so far been able to get the breech plug out of the gun. The 209 adapter came off of the breech plug just fine.

I am now in the process of soaking the breech plug with some KROIL pored down the barrel - have end of plug blocked.

How long do you think it might take the Kroil to possibly loosen the plug so that I might be able to turn it out ?

I have the flat 2 ended wrench (one that fits onto the plug head and is perpendicular to the barrel - NOT the one that fits up thru the back of the receiver) that originally came with these rifles to try to get the plug out with.

Is there any lubricant that might possibly be better than Kroil ?

Thanks.



The very first day I owned my Black Diamond XR I got the breech plug stick. It was so stuck that the cheap tool they give you to take it out, I broke.

I took the rifle outside and poured boiling water down it. I used a tea kettle. And I just kept filling it and letting it drain until I had that barrel really hot. Then I threw it in a vice. I took a ratchet and a deep socket and got it on the breech plug after taking out the 209 nipple.

When I had a good solid grasp on it, I struck the handle of the ratchet sharply and quickly with a hammer. This is to jolt the breech. Then I got on the ratchet and was able to turn it out.

In the future, ever ten shots, take the plunger out, reach in there with a ratchet and deep socket and give that breech plug a turn back and fourth. Not to much to take it out. Just to make sure it breaks free.


Thanks for the advice.

I assure you that if this had been my rifle from the get go, then the breech plug would NOT have been stuck !!!

I clean my guns COMPLETELY after every shooting session, including placing breech plug anti-seize lubricant on the plug. I can "almost" turn the plug out by hand.

Thanks.
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Postby smyrnagc » Sat Oct 27, 2012 5:59 pm

I recently took a breach plug out of a Knight LK93 that had set for two years uncleaned. It took two days of soaking in Kroll oil but I got it out. The above recommendation of hitting the plug to loosen it is something that I also did. I also had to use a ratchet wrench instead of the supplied removal tool.
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Postby wpshooter » Sat Oct 27, 2012 7:38 pm

smyrnagc wrote:I recently took a breach plug out of a Knight LK93 that had set for two years uncleaned. It took two days of soaking in Kroll oil but I got it out. The above recommendation of hitting the plug to loosen it is something that I also did. I also had to use a ratchet wrench instead of the supplied removal tool.


May I ask if you got it out when you had the receiver/barrel in the stock or did you take them out of the stock and put the barrel in a vise ?

Thanks.

P. S. - Nice buck, I may have to see if I can get out to Tennessee one of these days !!!
Last edited by wpshooter on Sat Oct 27, 2012 7:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby smyrnagc » Sat Oct 27, 2012 7:40 pm

wpshooter wrote:
smyrnagc wrote:I recently took a breach plug out of a Knight LK93 that had set for two years uncleaned. It took two days of soaking in Kroll oil but I got it out. The above recommendation of hitting the plug to loosen it is something that I also did. I also had to use a ratchet wrench instead of the supplied removal tool.


May I ask if you got it out when you had the receiver/barrel in the stock or did you take them out of the stock and put the barrel in a vise ?

Thanks.


Oh yeah...Had the barrel off and in a vise the entire time. You probably need to do that...it gives you way more leverage. Wrapped it in a towel and locked it down tight in the vise.
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Postby Edwardamason » Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:00 pm

smyrnagc wrote:
wpshooter wrote:
smyrnagc wrote:I recently took a breach plug out of a Knight LK93 that had set for two years uncleaned. It took two days of soaking in Kroll oil but I got it out. The above recommendation of hitting the plug to loosen it is something that I also did. I also had to use a ratchet wrench instead of the supplied removal tool.


May I ask if you got it out when you had the receiver/barrel in the stock or did you take them out of the stock and put the barrel in a vise ?

Thanks.


Oh yeah...Had the barrel off and in a vise the entire time. You probably need to do that...it gives you way more leverage. Wrapped it in a towel and locked it down tight in the vise.


With the action locked down tight in a vise you can let the leverage of the wrench take over and do the work. Not much going to stop a wrench at that point. Or a electric impact wrench for that matter.

Trying to hold one by hand or in a stock you are just fighting it. You will get no where with it.

As to the water trick. That works pretty well on mildly stuck plugs. The problem I have with it is that it heats up the plug AND the barrel so its really expanding both the plug and the barrel This may help loosen a bit of mild rust or neglected threads but seized threads need some sort of expansion of the metal to get the ball rolling . By cooling the center of the ML. (THE PLUG) and heating up the outside (THE BARREL) you are expanding the barrel a bit making the tolerances a bit easier to work with.

Having removed hundreds of stuck barrels and breech plugs on rifles over my years this is one trick that simply works.
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Postby wpshooter » Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:42 am

sabotloader wrote:
wpshooter wrote:
sabotloader wrote:Shoot! I am really behing and old fashioned - I just use boiling water...


Do you pour boiling water down the muzzle end (with the breach end plugged up) or do you dip the whole back end of the barrel and receiver in boiling water ?

Wouldn't dipping the whole gun in boiling water for more than just a few seconds tend to ruin the finish on your gun ?

Thanks.



I remove the trigger and/or the scope - also remove the nippe if it will come out. Boil up a pot of water deep enough to submerge the action in. When it is boiling submerge the action in the water for several minutes - pouring boiling water down the barrel as it is heating is also a good thing.

After letting heat for a couple of minutes remove the action and try the plug. Might have to try a couple times.

But Edw is maybe correct if the plug is rusted firmly in place.

The hot water should not bother the finish at all... it will remove any protective oils so you are going to want to re-oil everything after drying.


Sabotloader:

Regarding putting the receiver / barrel in boiling water to attempt to get the breach plug out, I notice that on the trigger of this Thompson Black Diamond that there is a small PLASTIC bushing on the trigger safety mechanism.

I am wondering if I should possibly be concerned about boiling water melting that PLASTIC bushing ?

Thanks.
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Postby cayuga » Sun Oct 28, 2012 12:14 pm

Don't take the trigger off the rifle. Let T/C do that. In fact if you mail them the rifle they will take the stuck plug out for you. All if costs is shipping. Then they can check the rifle over. I wish the trigger did come off the BD. It is one of the faults of the rifle I dislike.
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Postby sabotloader » Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:44 pm

wpshooter wrote:
sabotloader wrote:
wpshooter wrote:
sabotloader wrote:Shoot! I am really behing and old fashioned - I just use boiling water...


Do you pour boiling water down the muzzle end (with the breach end plugged up) or do you dip the whole back end of the barrel and receiver in boiling water ?

Wouldn't dipping the whole gun in boiling water for more than just a few seconds tend to ruin the finish on your gun ?

Thanks.



I remove the trigger and/or the scope - also remove the nippe if it will come out. Boil up a pot of water deep enough to submerge the action in. When it is boiling submerge the action in the water for several minutes - pouring boiling water down the barrel as it is heating is also a good thing.

After letting heat for a couple of minutes remove the action and try the plug. Might have to try a couple times.

But Edw is maybe correct if the plug is rusted firmly in place.

The hot water should not bother the finish at all... it will remove any protective oils so you are going to want to re-oil everything after drying.


Sabotloader:

Regarding putting the receiver / barrel in boiling water to attempt to get the breach plug out, I notice that on the trigger of this Thompson Black Diamond that there is a small PLASTIC bushing on the trigger safety mechanism.

I am wondering if I should possibly be concerned about boiling water melting that PLASTIC bushing ?

Thanks.


I deferr to Cayuga - he has one and has one for several years... His suggestion probably the best....
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Postby wpshooter » Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:59 pm

Hooray, I got it out !!!

After soaking it in Kroil for about 2 days, I still could not get it out by just putting a socket wrench up thru the receiver and then putting the gun down on the floor to try to hold it while attempting to turn the plug.

So, made a trip over to my brother-in-laws house and after wrapping the barrel so it would not get scratched, placed the barrel in his vise by attaching vise jaws to the little extension on the bottom of the receiver that holds the stock to the receiver/barrel and then ran my ratchet wrench and extension up to an 11mm socket that I had on the breech plug nut and gave the ratchet handle a push and it turned almost right away.

When I got the barrel back home and looked at the plug after I removed it from the receiver, it actually did not look all that bad or at least not as bad as I had been expecting.

I think it is going to clean up real nice. I think the Kroil really did help because it looked like it had penetrated about 3/4 of the way down the threads of the plug towards the barrel end of the gun.

So, there does seem to be some value in 1) Kroil, 2) Brother-in-laws, 3) Vises.

Thanks for all your suggestions.
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Postby Edwardamason » Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:12 pm

wpshooter wrote:Hooray, I got it out !!!

After soaking it in Kroil for about 2 days, I still could not get it out by just putting a socket wrench up thru the receiver and then putting the gun down on the floor to try to hold it while attempting to turn the plug.

So, made a trip over to my brother-in-laws house and after wrapping the barrel so it would not get scratched, placed the barrel in his vise by attaching vise jaws to the little extension on the bottom of the receiver that holds the stock to the receiver/barrel and then ran my ratchet wrench and extension up to an 11mm socket that I had on the breech plug nut and gave the ratchet handle a push and it turned almost right away.

When I got the barrel back home and looked at the plug after I removed it from the receiver, it actually did not look all that bad or at least not as bad as I had been expecting.

I think it is going to clean up real nice. I think the Kroil really did help because it looked like it had penetrated about 3/4 of the way down the threads of the plug towards the barrel end of the gun.

So, there does seem to be some value in 1) Kroil, 2) Brother-in-laws, 3) Vises.

Thanks for all your suggestions.


I sort of knew that was gonna work. CoNgrats man!
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Postby smyrnagc » Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:38 pm

wpshooter wrote:Hooray, I got it out !!!

So, there does seem to be some value in 1) Kroil, 2) Brother-in-laws, 3) Vises.



4) Expert advice from MM.Com

Congrats on saving another ML from the bone yard...I got a small tear in my eye :D
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Postby Flhtr » Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:22 pm

I've had good results with PB Blaster.
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Postby cayuga » Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:43 pm

I don't understand why that Black Diamond XR is such a fiend for keeping breech plugs. I did away with the 209 ignition and went back to the #11 cap. Since I don't shoot pellets out of it, and of course we can't shoot BlackHorn 209 (or at least should not shoot it), I find less fouling between shots, and breech plugs that cooperate more. I teflon tape the breech plugs and then smear the outside with anti seize.
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