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Renegade Sidelock misfires

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lefteye
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Renegade Sidelock misfires

Postby lefteye » Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:36 pm

I converted a .54 Renegade to use musket caps and now cannot get it to fire at all. The caps are going off but no ignition. Any help or suggestions will be appreciated.
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Re: Renegade Sidelock misfires

Postby bubba.50 » Sat Sep 30, 2017 9:08 pm

you may have 'dry-balled'. the musket nipple may have screwed in too far & blocked the fire channel. if over-zealous cleanin' was involved you may have pushed oily crud into the 'combustion chamber' and/or fire channel.
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Re: Renegade Sidelock misfires

Postby Idaholewis » Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:27 am

bubba.50 wrote:you may have 'dry-balled'. the musket nipple may have screwed in too far & blocked the fire channel. if over-zealous cleanin' was involved you may have pushed oily crud into the 'combustion chamber' and/or fire channel.



What bubba.50 Said ^^^^

I will ad a photo In case you dont know what a Patented breech is? (Combustion Chamber, Patented Breech/Ante Chamber, Powder chamber) TC calls it a Patented Breech so we'll go with that. When you push a patched jag down your barrel and hit bottom, there is a Small chamber that is below that point that you can't reach (one of the biggest culprits of hangfires) I have a 'Cut Away' photo of a TC Hawken barrel (Same Patented breech as the Renegade)


IMG_501.jpg


TC even makes a 'Scraper Tool' For their Patented Breech, which i find is not needed, just clean your gun properly and you are good to go. By looking at the photo above you can see how the tool would work
IMG_503.jpg


And if you are gonna use a bore brush during your cleaning procedure, use a good one! Not all bore brushes are created equal! Press fitted brushes are GARBAGE for Muzzleloaders, By using them you are begging for problems such as a stuck brush at the breech end when you pull it out of the pressed end, You want to use a 'Loop Through' style that will NOT pull apart
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Re: Renegade Sidelock misfires

Postby Idaholewis » Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:53 am

Here is a press fitted bore brush, AVOID these like the plague in your Muzzleloader!!

These are likely what you will find readily available at most sport shops, etc. Look in the Muzzleloader section, that's usually where you will find the Good ones (TC themselves sell a GARBAGE press fitted brush) The last good ones i picked up are made by Traditions I believe? Cains outdoors carries the good ones, it's not difficult to find them, just gotta look and know what you are looking for.
IMG_469.jpg


Fill a bucket about a 1/4 full of tap water, Pull the barrel from the stock, Pull the nipple from the barrel and dunk the Breech (nipple end) in the water, Go down the barrel with a good proper tight fitting patched jag, when you pull back you will be pulling water back up into the barrel, Now SHOVE that water back out with 'good force' by pushing the rod to the bottom quickly, Do this many times Back n forth, this 'Rushing' Water through the Patented Breech and out the Snail/Nipple hole will clean the fouling out. Now make sure you dry your barrel good by running several dry patches through, I use an Air compressor and BLAST air through the Nipple hole making sure i get the 'fire channel' Patented Breech Dry, Keep the barrel pointed muzzle down so any water pushed out doesn't go back in, then run another dry patch or 2 through.
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Re: Renegade Sidelock misfires

Postby Idaholewis » Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:46 am

And last, When you dump your powder in make sure and hold the rifle up and 'tap tap tap' on the buttstock to 'settle' the powder in good, This will allow the powder to settle in the Snail (under the nipple) and in the fire channel good. I'm betting your problem is in the Patented breech/Powder chamber, Fire channel area, this area is easily overlooked, and i would say well over 90% of Hangfire issues. By looking at the Cut Away photo i posted above you can see what you are dealing with.
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Re: Renegade Sidelock misfires

Postby lefteye » Sun Oct 01, 2017 6:58 am

I used a small hose to push hot water down the barrel and it blew out the flash channel. I used the air hose through the channel and got plenty of air flow at the muzzle. I ran several dry patches through the barrel. I backed out the nipple and fired a cap. It seems that all the blast from the cap not getting through. There is no smoke exiting the muzzle. I will get to the range and try again.
I may go back and try a #11 cap and nipple if I can't get any where. Thanks for all the help.
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Re: Renegade Sidelock misfires

Postby ShawnT » Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:29 am

Lefteye.

I agree with the above it sounds like the problem is in the Nipple and or patented breech. Make sure that the nipple is clear by looking though it.

There is a little trick that you can try at home to see if you get any flame to the breech, instead of looking for smoke from the muzzle. Put a clean dry patch on the jag and push that all the way down to the plug and Leave it there. Put a cap on the nipple, point in a safe direction, and pop it off. Caps do not have enough pressure to send the rod out of the bore, but safety is first. Then remove the rod and look at the patch. If it is burnt you can load and try shooting, if it is not burn keep working on it till it is burnt at home before going to the range. That will save you some time going back and forth to the range.
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Re: Renegade Sidelock misfires

Postby Okie Hog » Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:40 am

I converted a .54 Renegade to use musket caps and now cannot get it to fire at all.


What brand musket caps are you using? CCI manufactures special low powered "re-enactor" musket caps for skirmishes, etc. A few folks claimed to have been hurt using regular musket caps. Those "re-enactor" caps will not reliably ignite powder.

https://www.greentophuntfish.com/cci-4- ... 00-ct.html

You should not need a musket cap to make that rifle function reliably.

1. Clean the flame channel with a bristled pipe cleaner.

2. Lean the the rifle lock side down after loading and give the stock a couple whacks with your hand. That will allow powder to enter the flame channel.

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Re: Renegade Sidelock misfires

Postby Idaholewis » Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:05 am

ShawnT wrote:Lefteye.

I agree with the above it sounds like the problem is in the Nipple and or patented breech. Make sure that the nipple is clear by looking though it.

There is a little trick that you can try at home to see if you get any flame to the breech, instead of looking for smoke from the muzzle. Put a clean dry patch on the jag and push that all the way down to the plug and Leave it there. Put a cap on the nipple, point in a safe direction, and pop it off. Caps do not have enough pressure to send the rod out of the bore, but safety is first. Then remove the rod and look at the patch. If it is burnt you can load and try shooting, if it is not burn keep working on it till it is burnt at home before going to the range. That will save you some time going back and forth to the range.


Good post ShawnT i left that out! If a rifle has been stored away with oil in it and barrel up, i always run a few dry patches thru to dry the oil in the bore, I pull the nipple and blast Compressed air through it and visually inspect that i can see through the flash hole, I also blast compressed air through the Snail (nipple hole of the barrel) to clear the Snail and fire channel, i then use a .30 Cal Nylon bore brush with a clean patch wrapped around it and folded over, when you run this down and push lightly when it stops you can feel it slide in to the patented breech, i then twist the rod several times to dry any oil up in the Patented breech, when i am confident i have the oil dried up good, That is when i run a clean patch down til it bottoms out and i pop 2-3 Caps off, pull the rod and inspect the patch for Soot/burn, if it is visible on the patch i go ahead and load my rifle with confidence it will go BOOM

I shoot my rifles so often (sometimes daily) that I rarely oil them anymore after i am done cleaning and THOROUGHLY drying the barrel. I DON'T recommend doing this Unless you have done it quite a bit and are confident that EVERYTHING is BONE DRY. When i am 'ringing' a rifle out (Working on load development) i am shooting that rifle nearly every day, If i oiled my bores everytime not only would i go through a ton of oil, but also have to deal with the procedure above to remove it each and every time (Which is a PITA) But When i know that i am NOT gonna be shooting for at least a week or more thats when i go ahead and oil everything up good
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Re: Renegade Sidelock misfires

Postby lefteye » Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:17 am

Okie Hog wrote:
I converted a .54 Renegade to use musket caps and now cannot get it to fire at all.


What brand musket caps are you using? CCI manufactures special low powered "re-enactor" musket caps for skirmishes, etc. A few folks claimed to have been hurt using regular musket caps. Those "re-enactor" caps will not reliably ignite powder.

https://www.greentophuntfish.com/cci-4- ... 00-ct.html

You should not need a musket cap to make that rifle function reliably.


1. Clean the flame channel with a bristled pipe cleaner.

2. Lean the the rifle lock side down after loading and give the stock a couple whacks with your hand. That will allow powder to enter the flame channel.

Thanks
Last edited by lefteye on Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Renegade Sidelock misfires

Postby lefteye » Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:28 am

I have CCI multiple use Four Wing Caps. Patches are not burnt. The nipple is clean. I will try pipe cleaners.
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Re: Renegade Sidelock misfires

Postby ShawnT » Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:46 am

lefteye wrote:I have CCI multiple use Four Wing Caps. Patches are not burnt. The nipple is clean. I will try pipe cleaners.


Did the rifle shoot with the #11 cap, or did you convert for some reason after getting it?

Best guess is that you either still have dirt or a chip in the breech flame channel or too weak of a cap.

Try using Idaholewis method for cleaning. I also put mine breech down without the cap in a small bucket of VERY hot tap water and a little soap, then switch to cooler clean tap water to rinse. Like he stated use a good tight fitting patch and run that up and down vigorously several times, more pressure on the down stroke. I'm talking churn that water up it the bucket. I always did this outside or in the bath tub to catch the splash. That force will flush it clean. Then dry it out, blow it out and try the pipe cleaner if you can get one in there. Then try popping a cap onto a patch again. If that patch is not burnt a little no reason to go to the range till it is. 2 or 3 caps should burn a lot of the cotton away on the end of the jag.
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Re: Renegade Sidelock misfires

Postby Okie Hog » Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:26 am

I
have CCI multiple use Four Wing Caps.


Those are the weak re--enactor musket caps under a new name:

The "Multiple Use" CCI caps are the same as the "Reenactor caps". They have simply slapped a new label over the top of the old label. If you carefully peel off the top label, you will see the "for reenactor use" label underneath. At least I did on two cans that I peeled:


http://www.n-ssa.net/vbforum/showthread ... -Weak-caps

My recommendation:

Change the nipple back to a #11. Use the CCI/Winchester magnum cap.

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Re: Renegade Sidelock misfires

Postby Idaholewis » Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:32 am

It's instances like this that i would MOST DEFINITELY use my steam cleaner through the Snail! I doubt the OP has one laying around, but never know? If by chance you have a little handheld steam cleaner, this WILL open that 'fire channel' Patented Breech up and clear ANY gunk in there!!!

This is a large diameter hole Flush nipple that came from a flush kit (you can easily drill an old worn nipple out and make the same thing) I adapted a piece of high heat silicone tube to, then to my Steam cleaner, NOTHING cleans the Snail, Fire channel, Patented Breech any better than this right here!!

IMG_698.jpg


This was from an old Pre Warning Renegade barrel that i got from a Pawn shop and was in REALLY good shape, i cleaned the barrel the old fashion bucket of water, slush pump method I described above, i was absolutely confident i had it thoroughly clean but Boy was I wrong! I went ahead and hammered it with the Steam cleaner just for the heck of it and this is what came out, That thing was NASTY and all kinds of it!! This came from the Snail, Fire channel, Patented breech. Steam cleans like no other!

IMG_699.jpg
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Re: Renegade Sidelock misfires

Postby lefteye » Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:52 pm

Thank you guys for all the advice. I did the hot water cleaning and used an air hose to blow out the flash channel. I got Dynamit Nobel caps and now have ignition. Thanks again.
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Re: Renegade Sidelock misfires

Postby sabotloader » Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:58 pm

Idaholewis wrote:And last, When you dump your powder in make sure and hold the rifle up and 'tap tap tap' on the buttstock to 'settle' the powder in good, This will allow the powder to settle in the Snail (under the nipple) and in the fire channel good. I'm betting your problem is in the Patented breech/Powder chamber, Fire channel area, this area is easily overlooked, and i would say well over 90% of Hangfire issues. By looking at the Cut Away photo i posted above you can see what you are dealing with.


Not enough people do this step and I would add tip the rifle to the nipple side when you are tapping. I personally tap on the side of the opposite the nipple.

Another thing you might do is drop 10-15 grains in a do the tapping then drop the rest of the powder.

I personally have changed from T7-2f to 3f, the much finer grains of 3f move out to under the nipple much easier...
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Re: Renegade Sidelock misfires

Postby sabotloader » Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:01 pm

Okie Hog wrote:I
have CCI multiple use Four Wing Caps.


Those are the weak re--enactor musket caps under a new name:

The "Multiple Use" CCI caps are the same as the "Reenactor caps". They have simply slapped a new label over the top of the old label. If you carefully peel off the top label, you will see the "for reenactor use" label underneath. At least I did on two cans that I peeled:


http://www.n-ssa.net/vbforum/showthread ... -Weak-caps

My recommendation:

Change the nipple back to a #11. Use the CCI/Winchester magnum cap.


I would totally second this post - I moved a long time ago the #11 nipple. I use CCI mags for range work and recreation and for hunting I am using RWS Dynamit Noblel 1075+ cap. More expensive but even slightly hotter the CCI,s
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Re: Renegade Sidelock misfires

Postby ShawnT » Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 pm

Glad you got it working. :yeah: Now go have some fun! :D
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Re: Renegade Sidelock misfires

Postby triggerhappy243 » Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:13 pm

a little too late for the fun, but I use actually boiling hot water to fraw up thru the snail and into the barrel.... draw it all the way up to the muzzle, then force the rod all the way down so the hot water screams out the nipple hole. I do this til the barrel is too hot to hold bare handed.

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Re: Renegade Sidelock misfires

Postby sabotloader » Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:27 am

triggerhappy243 wrote:a little too late for the fun, but I use actually boiling hot water to fraw up thru the snail and into the barrel.... draw it all the way up to the muzzle, then force the rod all the way down so the hot water screams out the nipple hole. I do this til the barrel is too hot to hold bare handed.


Works very well!!!
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Re: Renegade Sidelock misfires

Postby lefteye » Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:59 am

sabotloader wrote:
triggerhappy243 wrote:a little too late for the fun, but I use actually boiling hot water to fraw up thru the snail and into the barrel.... draw it all the way up to the muzzle, then force the rod all the way down so the hot water screams out the nipple hole. I do this til the barrel is too hot to hold bare handed.


Works very well!!!


Yes it does!! Great advice.
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