5/20/23 Mongrel sabotless 45cal ML. Range results with several bullets

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someone correct me if i'm misunderstanding something here ......
1684944698164.png

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firear...arms-ammunition-gun-control-act-definitions-0
".......... C. Any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term antique firearm shall not include any weapon which includes a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock or any combination thereof. ......."

if the ATF doesn't recognize it as a muzzleloader i wonder what states do or might ?
does this also mean the 45 scout V2 ML conversion aren't legally MLs ???

once again , someone correct me if i'm not understanding something here .
 
JeffB1961 said:
someone correct me if i'm misunderstanding something here ......
View attachment 34610

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firear...arms-ammunition-gun-control-act-definitions-0
".......... C. Any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term antique firearm shall not include any weapon which includes a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock or any combination thereof. ......."

if the ATF doesn't recognize it as a muzzleloader i wonder what states do or might ?
does this also mean the 45 scout V2 ML conversion aren't legally MLs ???

once again , someone correct me if i'm not understanding something here .
Click to expand...
You are correct. They are considered firearms that can be used in ML season.
 
The Mongrel originally was supposed to be a designated Muzzleloader. The ATF shot it down cause of it being capable of changing barrels.
 
Grouse said:
Some people on here are asking when the Mongrel will be available. The fastest and easiest way to get one is if you already own an T/C Contender. If you do, your looking two to three months. And this is what you would get.

https://hosting.photobucket.com/ima...Sj8b5xruA.jpg?width=590&height=590&fit=bounds
https://hosting.photobucket.com/ima...iHCTeTci4.jpg?width=590&height=590&fit=bounds
Forearm, Barrel, Ramrod, Bullet starter, Range Rod, 20 bullets, 20 charges, loading jag, and a hat.
Click to expand...
Grouse,

I sent an email to Gordy Edwards several days ago as you recommended & I have not received a reply. I appreciate your communication efforts, but I cannot wait another two or three months for my Texas hog hunt - my requirement is much sooner. I already own a Gen 1 T/C Contender Pistol. I've already purchased a 24" Bullberry muzzleloader barrel. I have already purchased the SSK Flip Grip. I want to purchase the Mongrel Forearm (with the hole at the end for the ramrod) & a hanger bar. Is the Mongrel Forearm & Hangar Bar available now ? If so, what's my cost ?

I have an upcoming deer hunt this season in Nevada. The Nevada game & fish office says that the Mongrel doesn't qualify for my muzzleloader hunt.

I do hunt in states you've listed that the Mongrel is legal. I have plans to ride my motorcycle to the east coast before the weather gets too bad - the Mongrel's 17" barrel would be a good fit for that hunt. When the Mongrel 'upper assembly" is available I plan to purchase one. What does it cost ?

At the Shot Show SSK mentioned plans to make other barrel lengths of the Mongrel System. What Mongrel system barrel lengths are planned & when do you anticipate availability ?

So far, you're the only person that has replied to my inquiries. Thank you for the replies.
 
62Corvette said:
Grouse,

I sent an email to Gordy Edwards several days ago as you recommended & I have not received a reply. I appreciate your communication efforts, but I cannot wait another two or three months for my Texas hog hunt - my requirement is much sooner. I already own a Gen 1 T/C Contender Pistol. I've already purchased a 24" Bullberry muzzleloader barrel. I have already purchased the SSK Flip Grip. I want to purchase the Mongrel Forearm (with the hole at the end for the ramrod) & a hanger bar. Is the Mongrel Forearm & Hangar Bar available now ? If so, what's my cost ?

I have an upcoming deer hunt this season in Nevada. The Nevada game & fish office says that the Mongrel doesn't qualify for my muzzleloader hunt.

I do hunt in states you've listed that the Mongrel is legal. I have plans to ride my motorcycle to the east coast before the weather gets too bad - the Mongrel's 17" barrel would be a good fit for that hunt. When the Mongrel 'upper assembly" is available I plan to purchase one. What does it cost ?

At the Shot Show SSK mentioned plans to make other barrel lengths of the Mongrel System. What Mongrel system barrel lengths are planned & when do you anticipate availability ?

So far, you're the only person that has replied to my inquiries. Thank you for the replies.
Click to expand...
Let me see what I can find out. Maybe Dave or Gordy can reply on this message.
 
Grouse said:
There’s a shelf on both sides of the barrel that the bullets rests on.
Click to expand...
It sounds like these guys have copied the idea for the Nitrofire muzzleloader from Traditions with their own version of the "Firestick" loaded with BH209 or something similar.

Therefore, it should be legal anywhere the Nitrofire is legal.

Thanks for sharing.
 
62Corvette said:
Grouse,

I sent an email to Gordy Edwards several days ago as you recommended & I have not received a reply. I appreciate your communication efforts, but I cannot wait another two or three months for my Texas hog hunt - my requirement is much sooner. I already own a Gen 1 T/C Contender Pistol. I've already purchased a 24" Bullberry muzzleloader barrel. I have already purchased the SSK Flip Grip. I want to purchase the Mongrel Forearm (with the hole at the end for the ramrod) & a hanger bar. Is the Mongrel Forearm & Hangar Bar available now ? If so, what's my cost ?

I have an upcoming deer hunt this season in Nevada. The Nevada game & fish office says that the Mongrel doesn't qualify for my muzzleloader hunt.

I do hunt in states you've listed that the Mongrel is legal. I have plans to ride my motorcycle to the east coast before the weather gets too bad - the Mongrel's 17" barrel would be a good fit for that hunt. When the Mongrel 'upper assembly" is available I plan to purchase one. What does it cost ?

At the Shot Show SSK mentioned plans to make other barrel lengths of the Mongrel System. What Mongrel system barrel lengths are planned & when do you anticipate availability ?

So far, you're the only person that has replied to my inquiries. Thank you for the replies.
Click to expand...
  • The SSK Mongrel Forend will not fit another manufacture's barrel without barrel modification. A hanger bar can not be used in this application. The barrel needs long, dovetailed standoffs as the rod passes through the standoffs. Retrofitting a barrel for this would not be easy.
  • In the calls I have made to state Fish and Game offices, there is a tendency for the person to answer with an opinion, not with the regulation. The Nevada muzzleloading regulations do not specify the method of loading the powder. Traditions show the NitroFire as being legal in Nevada, The NitroFire® Changes Muzzleloading!. Traditions has done an excellent job in petitioning states to update or clarify their regulations. A year ago, Traditions listed Ohio as approved, while Ohio's regulations clearly stated the powder must be loaded from the muzzle end. I called Ohio and got to the right person and they said they were changing their regulation (which they have), by eliminating the loading of powder from the muzzle. Pennsylvania has also changed the 2023 regulations to allow the NitroFire. While I have not contacted Nevada, I would have high confidence that Traditions has done the due diligence in verifying the NitroFire is legal.
  • While it has been discussed, there is no formal plan to add additional barrel lengths for the Contender platform. The design intent for the Mongrel was to create an East/Midwest woodlot hunting platform; light, short and handy applicable for tree stand and blind hunting. The barrel length is optimized to the charge device. Increasing the barrel length would require changes to the charge. We believe a greater opportunity would be for the next version to be on the Encore platform in both a 50 cal and long range 45 cal. SSK's patent covers the technology for any firearm platform so an in-line bolt action is another possibility. Please note, we have spent a lot of time in trying to optimize the current Mongrel for the Contender. Development of other applications takes a lot of resources and our focus now is to get the Mongrel, in its current 45 cal, 17" barrel into production.
  • Answering questions has been difficult as at times we could not give updates as we did not know the answers. We had a prototype run of cases made and had the Mongrel functioning well. While pushing a bullet down a barrel and putting a powder charge behind it and getting good results seems simple, but it is not. With the goal of a short woodlot gun, we are achieving high velocity in less than 16" effective barrel length (there is a recessed muzzle for starting the bullet and also the chamber). The acceleration rate of the bullet is much greater than let's say a 26" barrel. This acceleration rate induces factors that must be addressed. As we continued testing and developing, we ran into issues we had not seen before and it took us a long time, too long of a time, to understand that the brass case hardness gradient was critical to functioning. Discovering root cause and correcting the problems just take time. This situation is not just with the Mongrel, but with the SSK-50 (Contender clone) as well. We originally made prototypes that functioned well and then we began broader testing with the 50+ years of barrel variations and we ran into all kinds of issues. Once again, solving these has taken way longer than we would have thought, but we are driven to only release products when we have a complete understanding of the design limitations. I hear the customer's frustration on the delays daily, and I completely understand. We are going to get it right and not release a product that is not ready.
Thanks,
Dave
 
As far as copying Traditions im not sure about that?? I'm almost positive ive been using the Mongrel since 2018. Dave came up with this idea along time ago. Either way it doesnt matter. This method is so much cheaper to shoot and the primer is included.
 
Grouse said:
As far as copying Traditions im not sure about that?? I'm almost positive ive been using the Mongrel since 2018. Dave came up with this idea along time ago. Either way it doesnt matter. This method is so much cheaper to shoot and the primer is included.
Click to expand...
Thank You for your reply. It answered my questions.
 
kind of off topic maybe ...... but for future reference , i'm sure mark woodman could make a shorty patriot . he's 20 plus weeks out so it won't be done in time this year but it will for next year . and you can go smokeless in 45 and mark makes high , medium and low pressure adjustable breech plugs .
https://woodmanarms.com/patriot-muzzleloader.php
 
Grouse said:
As far as copying Traditions im not sure about that?? I'm almost positive ive been using the Mongrel since 2018. Dave came up with this idea along time ago. Either way it doesnt matter. This method is so much cheaper to shoot and the primer is included.
Click to expand...
Maybe the guys who came up with the Nitrofire copied Dave's idea.

It might take a patent search to answer that question, or Dave could have come up with the idea and then did not file a patent for it.
 
Grouse said:
I went to the range today to try out several bullets types in the new Mongrel sabot less Muzzleloader by SSK. I shot four different types of bullets and was amazed how well they all shot. My original prototype a couple years ago was a Douglas barrel. This new one is now a Green Mountain. I shouldn't really be surprised about the accuracy cause Knight rifles uses Green Mountain as well.

The first target was with the 260grn Brass bullets. Muzzle velocity 1980fps

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/v315/grouse1/IMG_5859.HEIC?width=590&height=590&fit=bounds

The second bullet is with the 270grn Parker bullets.

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/v315/grouse1/IMG_5860.HEIC?width=590&height=590&fit=bounds

The third bullet is the 280grn PowerBelts.

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/v315/grouse1/IMG_5861.HEIC?width=590&height=590&fit=bounds

The fourth and final bullet is the bullet I've been using the last couple years the 240grn Copper bullet. Muzzle velocity 2050fps

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/v315/grouse1/IMG_5862.HEIC?width=590&height=590&fit=bounds

Here is a couple pics of the targets together.

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/v315/grouse1/IMG_5857.HEIC?width=590&height=590&fit=bounds

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/v315/grouse1/IMG_5858.HEIC?width=590&height=590&fit=bounds

Not really much to say about the accuracy. They all shot very well, and as usual the pointy bullets always seem to shoot more accurate then the Hollow points. At least in my experience over the years. I've still shot some amazing groups with hollow point, just not today. LOL

As far as ease of loading, they all loaded very well. The Powerbelts and the Parkers loaded really easy. And the Hollow point bullets were a little tighter but loaded really good. All four bullets did very well in all aspects.

Took some random pictures today ill share with you.

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/v315/grouse1/IMG_5849.HEIC?width=590&height=590&fit=bounds

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/v315/grouse1/IMG_5848.HEIC?width=590&height=590&fit=bounds

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/v315/grouse1/IMG_5846.HEIC?width=590&height=590&fit=bounds

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/v315/grouse1/IMG_5851.HEIC?width=590&height=590&fit=bounds

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/v315/grouse1/IMG_5850.HEIC?width=590&height=590&fit=bounds

As you can see above, a clean empty barrel and one with a bullet in it. So easy to tell if the gun is loaded or not. No weighing/measuring powder. It just makes for the safest and easiest Muzzleloader ive ever used. It really shows to, i grab it first every time i go hunting. Is this for everyone?? Hell no, but its fun and cheap to shoot!!

I will note this is not Legal in all states for Muzzleloading. Here are some states that i have an understanding that they are.
Montana, Wyoming, South Dakota, Iowa, Michigan, Ohio, Kentucky, Oklahoma, Alabama, Georgia, New York, Vermont, New Jersey, and Maryland. I use it during rifle season here in PA.
Click to expand...
Just noticed Pennsylvania changed there law so the Mongrel and the Traditions are legal.
 

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