Cooper of Montana - Muzzleloader

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sabotloader said:
Squeeze said:
OK If you say they are smokeless capable, and come in a .45 with ~1-20 twist, I could call that my next gun :D I keep going back over the pictures and come up with more and more details that just stand out, and attest to the well thought out and executed design.

If they make it to qualify for 'smokeless' that might tend to reduce the number of rifles sold as that would change the class of the rifle and it could only be dealt through gun dealers with a FFL. That could be a big limiting factor.


Not quite accurate. It would only be reclassified IF the rifle can be converted back to a CF like the original Savage ML. A barrel swap and head spacing is all it really needed to convert. The MLII is a non 4473 muzzleloader. The original Savage ML with front locking lugs is now a form 4473 rifle.

As long as it can not chamber a cartridge without machining, the type of powder does not matter to the ATF as far as the form 4473 is concerned.
 
GM54-120 said:
sabotloader said:
Squeeze said:
OK If you say they are smokeless capable, and come in a .45 with ~1-20 twist, I could call that my next gun :D I keep going back over the pictures and come up with more and more details that just stand out, and attest to the well thought out and executed design.

If they make it to qualify for 'smokeless' that might tend to reduce the number of rifles sold as that would change the class of the rifle and it could only be dealt through gun dealers with a FFL. That could be a big limiting factor.


Not quite accurate. It would only be reclassified IF the rifle can be converted back to a CF like the original Savage ML. A barrel swap and head spacing is all it really needed to convert. The MLII is a non 4473 muzzleloader. The original Savage ML with front locking lugs is now a form 4473 rifle.

As long as it can not chamber a cartridge without machining, the type of powder does not matter to the ATF as far as the form 4473 is concerned.

Thanks for the information, I was not sure. With a Copper you would be able to switch barrels but I would think you would also have to switch bolts to a regular ML22 bolt.
 
Cooper Firearms said:
I initially wanted to do one on our rimfire action but I'm pretty sure it would require a 4473.

Not quite

A rimfire bolt has a different firing pin than a CF or a 209 primer. The bolt would be unique. Kind of a hybrid bolt. Just make the diameter a different size than the rimfire and it can not be converted without machining. My NULA is build this way.

Rimfire/209 hybrid bolt in a model 20 action and only NULA sells the bolt IF they install it. Otherwise you must buy the entire action which is form 4473.


This style makes for a VERY compact and rigid action.
BoltBP1.jpg


NULA-Bolt1.jpg
 
This is the reason i like my NULA and Knights so much. The action is smaller than say a Rem700 action. A ML does not require a long bolt or loading port for a 209. Lack of lug raceways makes it even stiffer. A smaller port also increases the rigidity of the action.

Rear lugs like the old Rem788 would be interesting though. One or two companies are using the Rem 40X RIMFIRE action for MLs. Very cool but VERY expensive too. IIRC the 40X rimfire action has two full mid to rear lugs.

This would be the super slick setup if price were no object.
kiff40xbolt.jpg


Just the bolt from PTG is over $250 and would require major mods to use a 209 primer.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/342168 ... 0x-rimfire
 
Cooper Firearms said:
Good to know! If the Model 22 ML is successful, perhaps the powers that be will let me pursue it :)

Cooper should get a rifle built and present it at the NMLRA spring in-line match or, even the NMLRA National Shoot this summer. You'd get a lot of attention in Friendship, where during the Nationals there'll be thousands of muzzleloader shooters there.

In-line shooters are tired of getting what the manufacturers want them to have, instead of what the shooters actually want.
 
:think: This is not easy to wright, Glenn my wife thinks I have a .45 problem, .45 LC, .45ACP, 6 or 7 .45 Knights, 6 or 7 .45 CVA's along with a 45-70 .45 Slufoot conversion, if you could build me a .45 with a 1-18 twist then we could prove her right. :lol: I do love the looks of your RIFLES. :yeah:
 
If you were serious about buying one in 45 caliber, we may be able to run one through the custom shop. It would cost more & would require us to source a different barrel but could likely be done. If you decide to look into this, just give me a call at the shop. 406-777-0373
 
Cooper Firearms said:
If you were serious about buying one in 45 caliber, we may be able to run one through the custom shop. It would cost more & would require us to source a different barrel but could likely be done. If you decide to look into this, just give me a call at the shop. 406-777-0373

In many places today the fast twist 45 is probably one of the more sought after rifles. It will probably never sale the volume that the 50 will nation wide - because of game regulations and easily available shooting essentials for the 50 everywhere.
 
Isn't there .......... some............ muzzleloaders which require a 4473 form, which must go through an FFL? According to the ATF, there are muzzleloaders that fall under the GCA.

ATF news letter:
MUZZLE LOADING FIREARMS

"We frequently receive questions concerning the sale of modern in-line muzzle loading rifles. Several years ago ATF determined that an in-line muzzle loading rifle using #209 shotgun primers for ignition was not an antique firearm and was subject to all provisions of the Gun Control Act (GCA). However, the GCA was amended in 1998 and many in-line muzzle loading rifles are now antique firearms and are excluded from the provisions of the GCA.
As defined in section 921(a)(16) of Title 18, U.S.C. the term “antique firearm” means –
(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or
(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica —
(i)is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire
3
FFL NEWSLETTER February 2005, fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or
(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term “antique firearm” shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.
Many modern in-line muzzleloaders including those that use #209 shotgun primers for ignition now meet the definition of “antique firearm” and are excluded from the provisions of the GCA. However, there are some muzzleloaders that are still firearms subject to GCA controls. For example, firearms which can be switched from muzzleloaders to breechloaders by exchanging the barrel are still GCA firearms. In addition, a modern firearm that is altered to function as a muzzleloader is still a firearm.

The following are some examples of muzzleloaders that are still GCA firearms:
Thompson Center G2 Contender 209-45, Thompson Center Encore 209-50, The H&R 1871 Huntsman, Rossi S50, Mauser 98 fitted with a muzzle loading barrel, Remington 870 fitted with a muzzle loading barrel, Mossberg 500 fitted with a muzzle loading barrel. (This would also include the Remington Ultimate and Ultimate Firearms rifles)

Although antique firearms are not subject to GCA controls, dealers should be aware that ammunition, including shotgun primers, is still subject to GCA controls. Persons who are otherwise prohibited from possessing firearms may purchase and possess antique firearms; however, such persons are still prohibited from possessing and receiving ammunition, including shotgun primers, as provided in sections 922(g) and (n) of the GCA respectively. Such persons may possess ammunition for antique firearms such as percussion caps, minie balls, and 50 pounds or less of black powder for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes.
Antique firearms are still subject to whatever State laws and local ordinances may apply."
 
Cooper Firearms said:
If you were serious about buying one in 45 caliber, we may be able to run one through the custom shop. It would cost more & would require us to source a different barrel but could likely be done. If you decide to look into this, just give me a call at the shop. 406-777-0373

Thanks, I will have to think on it for now. :yeah:
 
ENCORE50A said:
Isn't there .......... some............ muzzleloaders which require a 4473 form, which must go through an FFL? According to the ATF, there are muzzleloaders that fall under the GCA.

ATF news letter:
MUZZLE LOADING FIREARMS

"We frequently receive questions concerning the sale of modern in-line muzzle loading rifles. Several years ago ATF determined that an in-line muzzle loading rifle using #209 shotgun primers for ignition was not an antique firearm and was subject to all provisions of the Gun Control Act (GCA). However, the GCA was amended in 1998 and many in-line muzzle loading rifles are now antique firearms and are excluded from the provisions of the GCA.
As defined in section 921(a)(16) of Title 18, U.S.C. the term “antique firearm” means –
(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or
(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica —
(i)is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire
3
FFL NEWSLETTER February 2005, fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or
(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term “antique firearm” shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.
Many modern in-line muzzleloaders including those that use #209 shotgun primers for ignition now meet the definition of “antique firearm” and are excluded from the provisions of the GCA. However, there are some muzzleloaders that are still firearms subject to GCA controls. For example, firearms which can be switched from muzzleloaders to breechloaders by exchanging the barrel are still GCA firearms. In addition, a modern firearm that is altered to function as a muzzleloader is still a firearm.

The following are some examples of muzzleloaders that are still GCA firearms:
Thompson Center G2 Contender 209-45, Thompson Center Encore 209-50, The H&R 1871 Huntsman, Rossi S50, Mauser 98 fitted with a muzzle loading barrel, Remington 870 fitted with a muzzle loading barrel, Mossberg 500 fitted with a muzzle loading barrel. (This would also include the Remington Ultimate and Ultimate Firearms rifles)

Although antique firearms are not subject to GCA controls, dealers should be aware that ammunition, including shotgun primers, is still subject to GCA controls. Persons who are otherwise prohibited from possessing firearms may purchase and possess antique firearms; however, such persons are still prohibited from possessing and receiving ammunition, including shotgun primers, as provided in sections 922(g) and (n) of the GCA respectively. Such persons may possess ammunition for antique firearms such as percussion caps, minie balls, and 50 pounds or less of black powder for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes.
Antique firearms are still subject to whatever State laws and local ordinances may apply."

Yes, some that require a 4473. But he said everything, and that is not the case. Any classified as antiques can be shipped to your door. These would include, but not limited to. All Knight muzzleloading rifles with the exception of the KP-1. All White muzzleloading rifles, all CVA muzzleloading rifles and pistols with the exception of the Apex. Savage 10 ML II with the exception of the original 10 ML astgat requires 4473. The H&R/NEF Sidekick is classified as an antique, where the Huntsman requires a 4473.

Any with a frame that can interchange rifle or shotgun barrels installed without machining would require a 4473.

Just don't forget your use tax when you file your taxes if ordered from out of state without a retailer in Michigan like Cabelas, as they will collect tax when you order.
 
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