Testing with a 50 caliber muzzleloader

[geneso]

I am just back from a m/l hunt in which a rifle was assembled right before leaving for Missouri. I had never fired a muzzleloader before and neither had my gunsmith. Generous people had given me a lot of 50 caliber bullets in lead, sabots and full bore projectiles. I chose the Hornady ELDX bullets and , as suggested, ordered Furys' and others.
Now in New Mexico we have to use iron sights, and I have chosen to use a conventional stock with a wrist so a vernier sights can be used, as opposed to the thumbhole stock this stainless steel barrelled action came with. I shall test with the scope to find the best loads, then add the vernier sight to get used to the limitations that the state has imposed on us.

I intend on shooting the pure lead bullets first, then the sabots and then the full bore bullets. The muzzle has been threaded for a muzzle brake which should have been here a century ago, along with a funnel and the Knight has two action screws now with a floorplate for uniform screw pressure. I could not believe that action could be held in place with the tiny factory setscrew when using astout load. The action has been glass bedded and barrel free floated. Bestill manufacturing has modified the bolt so the 209a primer is fully enclosedin steel, as opposed to the disc supreme model this action once was. A new breechplug has been made. A Limbsaver recoil pad has been added.
I know about finetuning a centerfire rifle and have done so for a very long while. I know nothing about fine tuning a muzzleloader and would appreciate serious advice with regard to making a Knight m/l as good as it can be.

Thank you and happy New Year.

 

[snapbang]

Geneso, what are you going to hunt??? How far do you intend to shoot?? What powder do you have available??? Some of the fellows use peep sights on their MZs. What projectile do you prefer to use????

Having asked all those questions I state this.

I would say decide on a projectile that meets your need, then start with 60 grains of powder by volume of the powder of your choice, Shoot 3 shot groups, then add 5 grain increments until you reach a satisfactory group. If that doesnt work out try another bullet or powder and repeat above. Not unlike CF at all.

 

[geneso]

Hello Snapbug,
I shall test all 11 bullets I have with no prejudice. Starting out with 60 grains surprised me. I have a bunch of vials filled with 70 gr. of Pyrodex Select and have Blackhorn which has been recommended by three other experienced shooters, The shooters I conversed with use a minimum of 100 grains and for elk hunting they use 120-150 grains. All my powder charges will be weighed on a very finite scale and stored in vials.
The idea of 5 grains advance is a suitable amount. Since I have no idea of m/l recoil except for the 70 grain loads I shot. The larger amounts should prove to be educational. My range is 800 yards long for my HighPowers. If I have read correctly a max of 400 yards is pushing it as far as expansion and energy is concerned.
Thank You

 

[powderfinger]

What are you hunting? What do you consider the longest ethical distance you will shoot?

 

[DJ_Brutus]

Hello Snapbug,
I shall test all 11 bullets I have with no prejudice. Starting out with 60 grains surprised me. I have a bunch of vials filled with 70 gr. of Pyrodex Select and have Blackhorn which has been recommended by three other experienced shooters, The shooters I conversed with use a minimum of 100 grains and for elk hunting they use 120-150 grains. All my powder charges will be weighed on a very finite scale and stored in vials.
The idea of 5 grains advance is a suitable amount. Since I have no idea of m/l recoil except for the 70 grain loads I shot. The larger amounts should prove to be educational. My range is 800 yards long for my HighPowers. If I have read correctly a max of 400 yards is pushing it as far as expansion and energy is concerned.
Thank You

120-150gr powder by weight? Numbers in that range are usually measured by volume. Just making sure - Don’t want you to have a bigger boom than expected.

 

[geneso]

Depending on what I draw in New Mexico, more than likely I shall try for Elk, Mule of Couse deer, perhaps Antelope. So far I have fired a m/l five times and have Pyrodex Select and Blackhorn 209 powders. Old black powder cartridge loads were 50-60 grains, so this huge amount above 100 mystifies me. Is there a substantial gain on velocity with huge amounts of black powder? I have a rifle range with concrete bench to 800 yards,, so I will find the absolute range I can shoot accurately, but quite simply I am seeking a distance in which I can kill game ethically. Would that be 400 yards?

 

[ElDiablo]

I like modern bullets going faster - not slower. Im not sure what 50-60 gr of black and a 300 gr bullet would be. Estimate would be about ~1170-1255 fps. Here are a few other rough numbers for discussion.

Comparison .50 cal with .45 bullet taken from published data. (By volume)

100 gr 2F black 300 gr bullet ~1445-1600 fps

100 gr 2F 777 300 gr bullet 1750 fps

100 gr 3F 777 300 gr bullet 1820 fps

100 gr Bh209 300 gr bullet 1860 fps

 

[MrTom]

I know a lot of elk fall to lead bullets from sidelocks as well as in-lines but the gun you describe will certainly handle heavier loads with sabots and jacketed bullets. For the deer and antelope You can get by with a 250 grain bullet. Elk, 300-325 grain would be my suggestion. Lots of choices in either weight.

On the powder and weighing.... be aware that the max weighed charge of BH 209 AND T7 granular products is 84 grains. That's roughly equivalent to a max volumetric charge of 120 grains for both powders. True black you load 150 grains by volume.

 

[geneso]

My God, you have saved me from blowing up my rifle! I just happened to choose 70 grains of weighed of Pyrodex Select and now in reading this data realized I was at 100 grains since I weighed my charges on a scale. Lord!! It seemed to me the recoil was adequate, but I , obviously, did not know how adequate,!! Okay, so to start loading for accuracy, would you start by going to 60 grains weighed and then advance to 65, then maybe back to 70 once again? With a range to 800, and a background in precision shooting, I am not afraid of a more "rainbow" trajectory if I can gain precision. If I have understood my reading of this site, a 300 yard shot with an accurate muzzleloader is a practical limit as to energy for a clean kill with a well spaced shot?

 

[ElDiablo]

I have understood my reading of this site, a 300 yard shot with an accurate muzzleloader is a practical limit as to energy for a clean kill with a well spaced shot?

Not at all. Depends on your rifle, sight system, and load. And, of course, your target species. Elk require a lot more impact energy than an antelope.

 

[geneso]

YUp,
Since I am so new to this aspect of rifle shooting all that is common knowledge to m/l shooters is revolutionary to me.
So, my experience with m/l goes back to Seattle and a single episode with a competitive BPCR shooter with a 44/77 original Sharps with tiny pin front sight with a globe and a very tall Vernier rear sight with a tiny aperature, double set triggers and the owner doing all the reloading, complete with a tube that he blew into the breech end to moisten the unburned powder and allowing him to clean it every shot. That rifle was incredible at 200 yards allowing me to move a rock I shot at every shot. The bullets were paper patched.

So, now we advance 25 years and I realize this Knight is a major advancement in technology, yet there are incredibly expensive, near custom weapons that are vastly superior to my present weapon. Already my weapon is threaded for a muzzlebrake and it has arrived already at my gunsmiths along with a funnel which you use for powder AND seating the bullet, through the brake. My Knight has been converted by Jeff Pike to totally enclose the 209A primer in steel, with a breechblock with a carbide firing orifice, I have had the stock altered so that there are two stock screws and a floor plate to hold the action into a bedded stock, with the barrel free floating.There is a new Limbsaver recoil pad. For now, I will use the 1-6X scope to develop the best load of the bullets using Pyrodex select powder and also Blackhorn . I have vials of 50 , 70 grains ( 100) and also 4 pounds of Blackhorn which is like Gold here in New Mexico.
With lead, sabots and full bore bullets I shall go "up the scale" in bullets seeking the most accurate bullets. I will probably end up with Fury bullets, but will accept any accurate bullet, then add powder till the groups enlargen. The barrel is market "M" which I am told Knight no longer uses.
What would you be doing to start my accuracy testing?
Thank you in advance.

 

[WP79Vet]

For hunting, your shooting ability with your chosen weapon - UNDER HUNTING CONDITIONS, and NOT over a bench rest (!) - usually determines the maximum ethical range at which you should take a shot. So... if an animal is 80 yards away and the only shooting position available for that shot is offhand, you shouldn't take that shot unless you've practiced your offhand shooting enough to be confident that you can keep your offhand shots in, say, a 6 inch circle at 80 yards. I suspect that MOST hunters are unable to keep offhand shots in a ten inch circle at 80 yards, because they rarely practice shooting offhand. If you will be hunting without a scope, be aware that the 3/32 inch front bead of a typical hunting sight covers 11.5 inches at 100 yards, and a whopping 23 inches at 200 yards (if the bead is 30 inches from your eye, which is typical). So the bead covers 1 1/2 times the size of a typical deer's chest at 200 yards! That, in itself, makes it difficult to keep shots in a deer's 8 inch diameter vitals at 200 yards, unless you sight in and practice shooting off the top of the bead. Because most ML bullets are launched a low velocities (less than 2,000 fps) and have low ballistic coefficients, they have rainbow trajectories, and so shots at ranges greater than 125 yards or so REQUIRE precise knowledge of both the range to the animal, and your hunting bullet's trajectory.

A couple of weeks ago I passed on a shot at a 5x5 bull elk, at a range of maybe 120 yards, because it would have been a very awkward uphill offhand shot while standing on a steep snowy slope, no better shooting position was available, and I just wasn't sure of the range. I worked my way to about 80 yards away, but then swirling breezes put an end to the stalk.

The BEST way to improve your success rate when hunting with a weapon that has range limitations is to acquire enough hunting skills and enough knowledge of the animals you are hunting to get close to them. When hunting elk with a bow, I've never had to take a shot at greater than 25 yards, and I killed my biggest bull (in New Mexico) at a range of 12 yards. I killed a cow elk in NM at a range of 8 yards. In Oregon I killed a cow elk with a recurve bow at 25 yards after stalking the herd of about 15 elk she was in across a completely open, grassy hillside. I was in full view of the elk for the last 300 yards of the stalk. Hunting in a grassy pasture on the open prairies of South Dakota, I once STALKED to within 5 yards (!) of mule deer three times in 2 days, just to prove to myself that I could do it. The little buck I finally killed on that trip walked past me as I knelt on the other side of a log, in plain unobstructed view of the little buck, and he was 2 (!) yards away when I released my arrow.

Under most conditions, getting within 100 yards of an animal is super easy once you understand how their senses work, you've practiced moving without noise, you're patient enough to move slowly, and you don't force the shot by trying to get too close when wind conditions aren't right. Some of the exceptions to this include 1) stalking pronghorns on exceptionally flat, bare terrain; 2) when there are crunchy leaves or crunchy snow on the ground and you're in timber which is heavy enough to keep you from seeing animals that are more than 75 yards away; and 3) mountain hunting in areas which are so rough that the terrain itself (think cliffs and mountain goat habitat) prevents any kind of movement in most directions.

 

[geneso]

WP79vet You've just wrote the most important email I have ever gotten. I am going to write this out in long hand.
You have written it to a former Senior member of the Pope and Young club. I have stalked pronghorns with a recurve successfully and have taken both Rocky Mountain and Roosevelt elk, so your advice tells me you have traveled a lot. I have taken a Mt. Goat in B.C. and hunted them with a bow in Washington where I fell and was rescued by fellow bowhunters, so all of this you write rings true. My front sight on my muzzleloader will be a reticle which is adjustable for wind, with a globe, when I find it. I I will have a Vernier sight ( not a Soule, obviously) . Thanks to you I will be going back to shooting from offhand, kneeling and prone. I have hidden behind a benchrest since 1980's and because it provided me a measure of income as a writer and some fame when I set worlds records at 600 yards I was content to do so. I am 80 have just survived my second heart attack and now have twelve stents in my heart. Are you presently living in New Mexico.? Our place is south of Las Vegas. I will be using the 6x scope to really wringout the best in the Knight, which has been already modified for accuracy and yes, the concrete benchrest I made on the Tecolote land grant will be used to find out exactly the best, most accurate bullet/powder combination that this rifle is capable of. I have spent too much money in the past on custom competition weapons to start going down that rathole that drives competitive shooting again. So, the former Knight Disc Supreme will be the mechanical limitations that I choose.
Thank you so very much. I qualify as disabled here and will be trying my best with a true friend who also has disabilities to try and draw for certain hunts here. I have been so fortunate as to have drawn on the second try my once in a lifetime Oryx tag here and got a 36 incher. When you are hunting with people who have been trying for these tags for over 12 years, then it really sinks in as to how lucky I have been in the past.

Thanks ever so much,

 

[WP79Vet]

WP79vet You've just wrote the most important email I have ever gotten. I am going to write this out in long hand.
You have written it to a former Senior member of the Pope and Young club. I have stalked pronghorns with a recurve successfully and have taken both Rocky Mountain and Roosevelt elk, so your advice tells me you have traveled a lot. I have taken a Mt. Goat in B.C. and hunted them with a bow in Washington where I fell and was rescued by fellow bowhunters, so all of this you write rings true. My front sight on my muzzleloader will be a reticle which is adjustable for wind, with a globe, when I find it. I I will have a Vernier sight ( not a Soule, obviously) . Thanks to you I will be going back to shooting from offhand, kneeling and prone. I have hidden behind a benchrest since 1980's and because it provided me a measure of income as a writer and some fame when I set worlds records at 600 yards I was content to do so. I am 80 have just survived my second heart attack and now have twelve stents in my heart. Are you presently living in New Mexico.? Our place is south of Las Vegas. I will be using the 6x scope to really wringout the best in the Knight, which has been already modified for accuracy and yes, the concrete benchrest I made on the Tecolote land grant will be used to find out exactly the best, most accurate bullet/powder combination that this rifle is capable of. I have spent too much money in the past on custom competition weapons to start going down that rathole that drives competitive shooting again. So, the former Knight Disc Supreme will be the mechanical limitations that I choose.
Thank you so very much. I qualify as disabled here and will be trying my best with a true friend who also has disabilities to try and draw for certain hunts here. I have been so fortunate as to have drawn on the second try my once in a lifetime Oryx tag here and got a 36 incher. When you are hunting with people who have been trying for these tags for over 12 years, then it really sinks in as to how lucky I have been in the past.

Thanks ever so much,

Greetings geneso,

Congratulations on being able to hunt into your 80's!! It sounds like you've done lots of hunting, and have a great deal of shooting experience!

My next to last tour of active Army duty was a two year assignment to White Sands Missile Range, starting in 1989, where I had a great time bowhunting for jack rabbits and stalking oryx, even though I never drew a tag. I also did lots of hunting around Cloudcroft in the Sacramento Mountains, and took a P&Y black bear there. After I got out of the Army at the end of the Cold War, I led applied physics research projects at Los Alamos National Lab from 1992 - 1998. While I was at Los Alamos, I took elk with my bow in the upper Chama Basin in Colorado, and in the mountains north of Taos. I also hunted deer with my bow in the Magdalena Mountains south of Soccorro, as well as deer and javelinas in the Burro Mountains in New Mexico's boot heel country. Never got a deer or a javelina in NM.

After Los Alamos, I moved to the eastern part of WA, and did lots of elk and deer hunting in various parts of WA, OR, and ID, and thoroughly enjoyed the world-class waterfowl hunting of Washington's Columbia Basin. Two years ago my wife and I moved to Helena, Montana, where I'm having a great time flyfishing for trout and hunting big game. Here are a couple of threads in which I describe this year's elk hunting adventures in Montana. MT Elk Hunting Report - Part One : Montana Elk Hunting Report - Part Two

Best wishes for your coming muzzle-loader adventures in NM!

 

[Leigh Clambakes]

I wouldn't suggest abandoning your concrete shooting bench right off. Use it to anchor your "launch pad" as it were. Figure out from a stable base which combo of powder/bullet/primer your particular rifle prefers, then get to trying all the particular positions you might encounter afield.
Change 1 variable at a time, including us in that list of variables. Once you've got your rifle dialed in, move out from behind the invariable concrete shooting platform.
Be aware how you load your Knight needs to be as consistent as what you load...as in seating pressure on the bullet.
Also try reloading in some of those hunting positions, since you might have to in real world hunting. I've had issues reloading prone, anything higher I can get'er done well enough.
Good luck to you.

 

[geneso]

Leigh,
The bench will be the consistent factor in telling me the most accurate load. The realization that reloading in the field is something I will have to practice on to gain any efficiency. I devloped a pair of shooting sticks with a rope attached which allowed for extreme accuracy with a heavy, single shot rifle I own. Its the reason a 36" Oryx is on my wall. That's all well and good, but it would be too heavy and clumsy to use with my muzzleloader. Instead I have pair of lightweight aluminum cross sticks here for years, that I now realize would be good for my Knight rifle. I will add a heavy cord to this because when you put cross sticks in tension with a cord or rope they can be extremely stable.
Now to sights. I have a friend in Minnesota who will be shipping me a vernier sight. he told me today the sight is 3 inches tall and this seems quite appropriate to me for a hunting rifle rear sight. Now to match it up to a front sight. Obviously with just three inches of total adjustment in the rear, with the sight mounted in the wrist of the stock, I believe I would want a front sight with windage adjustment built in, a reticle sight and a globe for level. I used something like this many years ago and its accuracy on that old Sharps was indelible.
There are a variety of front sights out there. Is there some experienced shooter out there who has some advice as to which sight I could use and which height it should be?
Thank you all so much.

 

[X-ring]

Leigh,
The bench will be the consistent factor in telling me the most accurate load. The realization that reloading in the field is something I will have to practice on to gain any efficiency. I devloped a pair of shooting sticks with a rope attached which allowed for extreme accuracy with a heavy, single shot rifle I own. Its the reason a 36" Oryx is on my wall. That's all well and good, but it would be too heavy and clumsy to use with my muzzleloader. Instead I have pair of lightweight aluminum cross sticks here for years, that I now realize would be good for my Knight rifle. I will add a heavy cord to this because when you put cross sticks in tension with a cord or rope they can be extremely stable.
Now to sights. I have a friend in Minnesota who will be shipping me a vernier sight. he told me today the sight is 3 inches tall and this seems quite appropriate to me for a hunting rifle rear sight. Now to match it up to a front sight. Obviously with just three inches of total adjustment in the rear, with the sight mounted in the wrist of the stock, I believe I would want a front sight with windage adjustment built in, a reticle sight and a globe for level. I used something like this many years ago and its accuracy on that old Sharps was indelible.
There are a variety of front sights out there. Is there some experienced shooter out there who has some advice as to which sight I could use and which height it should be?
Thank you all so much.

You don't need a windage adjustable front sight. The windage adjustment should be on the rear vernier sight. X

 

[geneso]

Hello X-ring,
The vernier rifle sight being given free to me does not have the windage adustments that Soule Verniers rear sights do. Thus I have to make my adjustments on the front sight.

 

[X-ring]

Hello X-ring,
The vernier rifle sight being given free to me does not have the windage adustments that Soule Verniers rear sights do. Thus I have to make my adjustments on the front sight.

Got it. Just don't forget that as you are looking down the barrel, you move the front sight the opposite way you want the bullet to go. I.E. front sight right moves bullet impact left. Front sight left moves the bullet impact right. Practice, practice, practice. X