Copper Gas Checks

[sabotloader]

I just ordered a pack of the 458 gas checks mainly because they sold out of the .454s. I have a .454 and a .451 sizer so i can resize in 2 steps and i know a .451 fits my Mountaineer fine and the Super DISC has tighter bore. It was worth the $16 to test this.

Im also curious if they will fit in the powder side of a sabot.

I am following along with this GM! Very interested in your results.

 

[glockky]

I think putting them on the bullet would be the best bet. Turned around backwards they are more than likely not going to hit the bullet perfectly straight.

I’ve had accuracy issues from gas checks not being seated on good and square to the base of a bullet.

 

[GM54-120]

The gas check will act no differently than a wad and im mainly looking at it for jacketed sabotless loads in 45cal.

 

[michiganmuzzy]

Ive been looking at gas check molds from Accurate, in .45, in the 250-350 grain weight range. There are several good looking options. I’m thinking about having a GC version of the 45-340i made.

 

[HC]

I can’t see the gas check expanding enough to fill the groves in a muzzleloader. Thus a wad would still be needed.

 

[GM54-120]

Maybe not but sized right you can get them really tight but not so tight you cant seat them on the powder. They will engrave slightly when loaded too. As they scrape down fouling, that fouling should help seal it. Mine shipped already.

Might need to tinker a bit with how to size them the best or the easiest. Wish i had a 40 or 44cal sizing ram to use with my 45cal sizers. The shank on a GC bullet is .426 iirc and it would be easier (i think) to push them through with the ram in the cup side. The smallest ram i have is for a .450 sizer.

 

[sabotloader]

I think putting them on the bullet would be the best bet. Turned around backwards they are more than likely not going to hit the bullet perfectly straight.

I’ve had accuracy issues from gas checks not being seated on good and square to the base of a bullet.

My thoughts... what GM is going to try to do is to use the gas check as exactly that seal the gas in the bore behind the bullet as it travels up the bore. In addition, the check sealing the gas pressure may actually obturate the bullet to the bore in a shorter time. Once the bullet leaves the bore the "check's" job is done and the two projectiles will separate from each other. With this thought GM is hoping to shoot .451/.452 full bore bullet with velocity and accuracy.

If the re-sizing works as he is suggesting and with the installation skirt side down works. He may create a very creative copper wad effect.

I believe that is what GM's goal is. He can point out my errors when he gets back to this Thread.

 

[GM54-120]

Nope, you nailed it. The goal is to speed up obturation of the bullet. In this case a jacketed sabotless bullet. Just need to see if they can be sized tight enough but still not a PITA to load. With a bullet you cant even go .001 over lands. I cant even get a .4505 bullet down .450 lands without a hammer. Im thinking the short bearing surface of the gas check wont have that problem.

In my Mountaineer i can just get a bullet run thru my .451 sizer to load. So its lands are around .4507-.4508. A .4505 will seat with just the weight of the rod. Basically effortlessly. My Super DISC is even tighter. A Parker BE .4505 aint going down but a .4495 will with almost no effort. Im betting a gas check sized to .451 will go down and be quite tight.

 

[BadgerRidge]

Last night in the middle of the night! I went "WAIT' - GM was talking about a 45 cal. base! So my post was off base in this thread.

I asked Del and MMP several times about the possibility of 45 cal. sub-base but it never got off the ground!

MMP Is under new ownership.... I'd bet once the new owners get their feet under them, they'd be open for suggestions on new products.

 

[GM54-120]

His son didnt take over after Del passed?

 

[sabotloader]

MMP Is under new ownership.... I'd bet once the new owners get their feet under them, they'd be open for suggestions on new products.

That is kind of bothersome to me! His son has been running the business for several years when
Del was ill.

I just spoke to a leading authority at MMP - Connie - she confirmed the sale but said nothing is expected to change any time soon!

 

[HV-Muzzleloaders]

Williams "Cleaner Bullet"

https://www.gettysburgmuseumofhisto...ner-bullet-recovered-cedar-creek-battlefield/

 

[BadgerRidge]

All I'm saying is: new owners... give them time... I'd bet they'd be willing to look at new ideas once they are settled in.

 

[GM54-120]

Mine arrived and i had no problem resizing the .458s in a Lee .451 sizer with a Lee hand press. I will see how they fit my bore later today. If the .451 fits my tighter 45 then i will need to get a Lee .452 for my other one. The idea is to get them as tight as possible but still able to load without a hammer down.

 

[HV-Muzzleloaders]

Mine arrived and i had no problem resizing the .458s in a Lee .451 sizer with a Lee hand press. I will see how they fit my bore later today. If the .451 fits my tighter 45 then i will need to get a Lee .452 for my other one. The idea is to get them as tight as possible but still able to load without a hammer down.

At one time I did some mathematical calculations on how much gas could leak around the smooth-sized bullets by going through the grooves in the rifling of the barrel on my 45 caliber smokeless muzzleloaders. If you make a better gas seal with your idea, you may need to reduce your powder charge to keep the same pressure.

 

[GM54-120]

The best ive seen sofar are the poly wads from Walters. The 45cal rifle poly wad is .463 and they pretty much fill the grooves. You can buy small packs of them from Fury or 1000/$20 plus shipping from Buffalo Arms.

On a side note, by the way this felt going thru the sizer i bet a hard pop on a short starter would get them into a 45cal ML bore without sizing. It was hard but then popped thru my sizing die. The OD looks like a small lip instead of the entire gas check being the claimed OD. That lip should engrave without a ton of effort.

I will try that too with a .454 sizer and just the way they come. Engraved well on loading would be a huge plus.

 

[michiganmuzzy]

The best ive seen sofar are the poly wads from Walters. The 45cal rifle poly wad is .463 and they pretty much fill the grooves. You can buy small packs of them from Fury or 1000/$20 plus shipping from Buffalo Arms.

On a side note, by the way this felt going thru the sizer i bet a hard pop on a short starter would get them into a 45cal ML bore without sizing. It was hard but then popped thru my sizing die. The OD looks like a small lip instead of the entire gas check being the claimed OD. That lip should engrave without a ton of effort.

I will try that too with a .454 sizer and just the way they come. Pre-engraved would be a huge plus.

Are you going to get to shoot them this weekend?

 

[GM54-120]

I doubt it

Are you going to get to shoot them this weekend?

Got way too much going on atm. Im rushing to get the last of my peppers processed before it gets too cold. Plus i moved all my scopes around and still have not got around to laser bore sighting them all yet. My 54-120 is the only one that is still ready to go.

 

[HV-Muzzleloaders]

Like a Williams cleaner bullet from the war.

After your comment I did some research and found some Williams Cleaner bullets for sale at the Gettysburg Museum. I ordered two and cut one of them in half.

After looking at the picture of the bullet, it looked almost exactly like the idea I had experimented with a couple of years ago. It is very similar to an older idea that used a wooden plug in the base of the bullet for expansion. I used my milling machine to make a mold and cast some Linotype for the plugs I made. The Linotype plug has a gas-check screwed to the bottom of it to help keep the Linotype from melting from the hot gases.

The bullets at the bottom of the photo are jacketed bullets with the jacket removed at the bottom and the wedge-shaped expansion plug inserted into it. The bullet on the left is a bullet that I shot into several bales of cellulose insulation and then recovered for inspection.

 

[Underclocked]

Reinventing the wheel...

Need Rattus (Tom Lodge) here to explain the annealing process used.