Extremely bad blowback

[Mikeul50]

Hi Squeeze...quite a call sign you have...must have taken awhile to figure that one for yourself...
If memory serves me right it was a semi-rounded firing pin...
The ml is at knight so I cant say proof positive...but will show a picture when I get it back...if it is the same breechplug or firing pin I am sure knight will tell me what they have done to fix the problem...as i have been told though..it will be fixed to accept any breechplug or bolt and guaranteed to function...
Since it is back there I am also checking into having the Bare 209 bolt and BP just to make sure I am covered into the future...

 

[Squeeze]

If I am right, It HAS the bare 209 bolt. Just need the proper breech plug. Those musket indents sure look like a detent firing pin. Im pretty sure all the cap firing pins are just a flat blunt rod

 

[Mikeul50]

Hi Squeeze...
Here is a picture of the firing pin I believe to be on the UL that I sent back to Knight...
This pic is of another UL that I just purchased...does it look to be the 209 primer pin...it is rounded not flat...
This one did not fire the musket caps either..I will try the technique of figuring out the true depth for ignition here in a bit...


I think I sent picture correctly...
Let me know please...if need be I can text it to you also...

I believe the other ml has the same firing pin...because this one come from sportsmanswarehouse also....I was stupid and anxious...
IT DID NOT FIRE A MUSKET CAP...but only tried one..will do testjng first before destroying more musket caps..then try #11...

 

[Mikeul50]

Okay gentle...
I was able to get this new ul ml to finally ignite the musket caps...I had to loosen the nipple 1/2 turn for ignition and it ignited each pull of the trigger...
I have not tried the #11s yet to see what their loosey-goosey range is...
Knowing that the breechplug needs to fully set into the threads or powder residue will get into the threads...does the nipple need to be fully screwed into the bp or can a nice little stainless washer be placed in between to hold the nipple out far enough for ignition...as long as the nipple and washer are snug/secure to the bp should that be adequate threading or does the nipple need to be set against the bp for adequate threading...I dont see how a washer/spacer can hurt as long as it only takes up the gap between threaded and loosened bp...
So simple...yet so complicated...
The picture is for illustration purposes only as the washer is just shy of fitting over the threads of the nipple...
Thanks guys...

 

[Mikeul50]

Once again I want to thank you guys for your guidance on this new endeavor of me and my wife and son...
The little bit of knowledge that I have been instilled with through all of you has made this ml work in my hands...well the caps have ignited anyways...
I feel like I can walk out the door to the range and enjoy, rather than fret about some little issue...
Differences in the two guns...
1...ml(#1) at knight is green with webbing..#2 is tan with webbing....
2...musket caps..in #1 would not fire...and I did not adjust the bp because of lack of knowledge...#2 did not fire musket caps until I adjusted the bp out 1/2 turn..then they all fired each pull of trigger...
3...#1 had to have bp loosened 1 full turn to get constant igniton...#2 ignited fully at 1/2 turn..each pull of trigger...
4...if it wasnt snowing right now I would be headed to the hills to fire some rounds...
5...still wondering if a stainless washer between nipple and bp is a good idea...

Bummed...and as it is coming down outside I will be plowing and shoveling quite some time tomorrow....

PS...how you guys on the east coast doing with your grand weather....

 

[ShawnT]

I'm on Long Island and last I heard we are at 20" and still snowing. Blizzard conditions all day with 40+ mpg wind. Not suppose to lift Blizzard warning till around 7am tomorrow. No shooting for a while.

How thick is the washer you want to put under the nipple? If it is just something like .005 to .015 that should work fine.

 

[Mikeul50]

Hey Shawn...hope you made it through the night...
After measuring the nipple tight and loosened 1/2 turn there seems to be .018 differrence in both the #11 and musket...anymore and I would be worried about threads nkt holding...
So I am off the the hardware store to find that particular washer...hopefully some store somewhere will have one big enough to fit around the nipple threads yet small enough to allow my socket to fit the bp head....
Thanks...
Use a good bowline knot around your waist and get back to shooting...just read the winds....might be alot of fun...

 

[ShawnT]

We ended up with about 25 to 29". Hard to tell due to drifting. They have the end loader piling it up today.

Small shim stock can be hard to get at a hardware store. .015 to .020 should not shorten the nipple threads of a standard 1/4" x20 Knight nipple enough to worry about it. Plenty room on the ones I have. I have some but they are too small to work on a 1/4" nipple. If you don't find one you might try one of these.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#94773a683

http://www.mcmaster.com/#94773a710

 

[Mikeul50]

Thanks for the info Shawn..
I did not find any shim stock...lowes and homedepot have so little to look through anymore...
Did happen to buy some brass washers..do you think those would handle the heat or would they expand and contract too much...
On the way home I was contacted by the Knight rep that Sabotloader told me to contact...Garry...he told me to hold off and that he wanted to send me a new bolt assembly to try in the new ml...so I guess I am waiting for a brown truck to drive
into the driveway soon...

Just so you know we are getting snow flurries here in Idaho too...but dont worry..hell hasnt frozen over yet...

 

[Mikeul50]

Well Gentlemen...
I got word today that I am to recieve a new bolt assembly to try in the new UL
and word was passed along that the original UL has had its bolt changed out and is on its way back home.....but of course we are to get more snow later this week and I would bet that it shows at he same time....
This is a quandary....
Do you think of he neighbors would turn me in for digging a hundred yard ditch to hold a 24" conduit or covert pipe and run an electrical line for a light bulb...
as long as it was ventilated it would be a very safe shooting range...
Oh..did I forget to say it might have to run into my neighbors yard....ha...
This area is a frozen landscape right now...and I bet this would be a great idea for many of you shooting enthusiasts...
If only I had a little more property it wouldnt be a dream....

 

[ShawnT]

Brass would do just fine. You were asking about the thickness taking up too much of the nipple threads. They have flash cups that fit under nipples (go between nipples and the drum on a side lock). I have one on a 30+ year old CVA Mountain rifle and it is .045 thick works good.

Here is what one I have looks like.
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categorie ... LASH-CUP-2

But since they are wanting you to hold off, I think they will fix it so that shim is not necessary and would let them do it. :yeah: 8)

 

[ShawnT]

Well Gentlemen...
I got word today that I am to recieve a new bolt assembly to try in the new UL
and word was passed along that the original UL has had its bolt changed out and is on its way back home.....but of course we are to get more snow later this week and I would bet that it shows at he same time....
This is a quandary....
Do you think of he neighbors would turn me in for digging a hundred yard ditch to hold a 24" conduit or covert pipe and run an electrical line for a light bulb...
as long as it was ventilated it would be a very safe shooting range...
Oh..did I forget to say it might have to run into my neighbors yard....ha...
This area is a frozen landscape right now...and I bet this would be a great idea for many of you shooting enthusiasts...
If only I had a little more property it wouldnt be a dream....

Great! Just saw the post after I clicked submit. That's is great news.

There is at least one club here on long Island that I know of that has 2 100 yard tubes underground. 8)
It is busy enough with their members that a guest don't really stand a chance to shoot there.

 

[Mikeul50]

Hey Shawn now you get to clean up...isnt that all the he rage...
I grew up across the road from the South Fork Coquille River just a half mile upstream from the city of Myrtle Point Oregon...did my share of clean up from the flooding river..sometimes three or four time a winter...trees, brush and whatever else was deposited in the yard...
When the water was running around and under the house and through the yard we used to get lucky and annihilate the moles rats and mice that tried swimming by...
Being moms house is in the flyway of local ducks and geese we climbed to the roof and shot dinner from the sky...starlings and crows littered the water as we helped to reduce the population as best we could..however since I havent had the chance to be there in several years the populations have gotten ridiculous....guess I need to visit and wait for a flood...and use the downtime fishing for those absolutely delicious winter steelhead.....

Those cups look interesting...especially if I see too much flame from the bolt area...
Somewhere along the forum I saw a measurement for the flashhole in the nipple..is that a safety standard hole from factory or do people open them up a touch for more ignition to pass through...this is just a question for knowledge...I would think that if opened up it might ignite the powder too fast...so this is a curiosity quality question..
Thanks and be safe...slips and falls are not good .his time of year...

 

[ShawnT]

Never cleaned up after a flood but I've cleaned up plenty of snow.

Those cups look interesting...especially if I see too much flame from the bolt area...

Those Flash cups are for side locks (Percussion) not inlines. They prevent the sparks from the caps burning the stock. Some of the side locks use the same nipples we use in the inlines. My point was just that the cup on my Sidelock was .045 thick and you only were looking at .018 thick shims. So there was no reason to be concerned with losing any amount of threads from adding a ,015 to .020" shim washer. That same site I linked to the flash cups also has Brass nipples from AMPCO too.

Last time I spoke to a guy at Knight about nipples for the MK-85 he told me that the flash holes in Knight nipples was .029. I think the flashhole is mostly for limiting back pressure into the action from the ignited powder but may also help focus the flame into the powder for better ignition. There have been some experiment with Flash hole size but I think more of that was directed at the use of BH209 powder and that Flash hole is in the breech plugs not in nipples. Black powder and other subs like Pyrodex or 777 are not as hard to ignite and #11 or musket caps work great with them. I can't recall ever replacing a nipple due to a worn flash hole (I can't say it will not happen) and were instead replaced due to the cap side finally wearing out due to the repeated hammer strikes. Hammers can cause them to flare out some after a while. You can dress them down with a file so that the caps fit again but may have to eventually replace them. I'm not sure how the firing pin on the UL will wear on the nipple. Someone like Sabotloader might have some thoughts on that.

 

[Mikeul50]

Hey guys...
Just a note to let you know I did recieve the ml back as of Thursday...so from time of shipping to and fro....two weeks...not bad for time...just bad timing as like I figured it is now raining but snowing here and there too...so not able to get out to actually shoot the ml...
NOW... I have been able to ignite the musket caps on the pull of the trigger..all but one pull anyways...will have to wait and see how it shoots at a later date...
KNIGHT did tell me that they replaced the bolt assembly...and it is very obvious that they did..not only is raising the bolt hard to engage the firing pin, but now getting the bolt to lock down into the firing position is harder...hopefully a few more hundred times and it will get a little easier..right now any animal would hear me closing the bolt...
I did some measuring between the replaced bolt assembly and the bolt assembly in the other ul ml...the only difference I could find was the replaced firing pin seemed to be .020" longer...
I did try the replaced bolt in the other ml..and it did not ignite the musket caps...
As I am awaiting the replacement bolt assembly for the other ml I sure as heck hope it works or the gun will be heading back to factory...
I will continue letting you all know about this saga...
I did speak with guys at sportsmanswarehouse and they do have a supply of ultralites at their warehouse...but they may all be problematic...unless you feel that shimming the nipples is so minor that it may be worth the drive to get one in person...
If I had been aware of this situation before...I would have ordered the ml from Knights factory...two weeks for a working ml is way less headache...

 

[Mikeul50]

Gentlemen and women should there be any...
I have another update...just got back from the mail box and the bolt assembly for the second ul has shown...
So I have spent the last hour running caps through both ml....
Started test with the muskets since they did not ignite on first test of either ml...
Gml (bolt replaced at factory) Tml (bolt sent via usps)
Both mls fired all muskets...both mls fired all #11
Switched bps in mls and both fired #11 and muskets...
So it seems that I have to functioning Knight Muzzleloaders...and a great relief...as the second does not have to be shipped back to factory...not that it is a hassle but I dont like any gun that I have purchased to leave my possession...very seldom do I loan guns...the last time I did was to a friend that used my 7mm remington mag. elk hunting the coast and that ss tikka came back...two weeks after season had ended and surface rust in many places...still not happy about that stupid decision...
So thank you gentlemen (and ladies) for you correspondence and knowledge...
Something may come up in the future...so expect more questions...so now I will be cleaning two ULites and leaning them against a wall awaiting their first outing...
I will post some pictures eventually...
Thank you MODERNMUZZLELOADERFORUM for being here...
Thank you Knight Rifles for a great turnaround time on my seemingly simple fix...
I do feel confident enough in the mls to put them in my wife and sons hands...

PS...my wife and 11 year old son are just finishing the Idaho requirement of a four hour class for their Hunters Education certificates...next year I get to hunt....

 

[ShawnT]

Great News! :applause: Great to see Knight come though. Let us know how they shoot.

Great to see the whole Family is getting involved too. :yeah:

 

[WV Hunter]

Glad they got you squared away! :yeah: Looking forward to some range reports

I missed the part where you said you bought a 2nd UL :mrgreen: That is awesome. Most folks are excited to have one UL, I think you might be the first I've heard of that has 2!!! :yeah: :yeah: :applause: :applause:

 

[Mikeul50]

WV..
I kinda have two....but only one until the wife said she wanted her own...
Both ML are ready to shoot...just waiting on some sabots to show and the snow
to go...so we can actually drive to the shooting area...doesnt look promising though..as today we have sunshine and it is about 30* outside...but no sabots to put bullets in...
Been conversing with Sabotloader...and for my wifes and sons shooting they are going to start with some of the HSM 10/40 180 grain flat point plated bullets...
Will eventually move them up to the HSM .452 250 grain hard cast lead bullets...
Of course they are gonna be saboted...but it is a good price for getting started...
If anyone has shot these with good results I sure would like to know...

 

[Mikeul50]

Hello all...
Finally after almost a month and a half, my son and I got to the mountain to shoot these UL mls...ah...relaxing....
We are trying to use up the musket caps..getting close...we did have failure to ignite the caps...but I think It was the caps and not the ml this time...
Tried using Alliants Blackmz powder...all the grains remind me of cans of coffee...
really wasnt expecting that...but it did fire each and everytime the caps ignited...
The ml are scoped with leupolds..the wifes has the grandslam with the fancy circle crosshairs 3-9/40...the green has a 4-12/40 with varmit hunter crosshairs....

My son is 11, very experienced shooting cartridge guns and shotguns...
New venture with the ml...so we went through the detail of loading, shooting and cleaning a few times...being our first siting with the scopes I got to shoot and he got to clean...and he did a really good job, and he enjoyed it...when the mls were shooting close it got to be his time to shoot...so we went back through the loading process...powder measured..pour...sabot..start..push in(with my help)...take the ml to the shooting bench, place the cap and get snuggled in for the first pull of the trigger...of course I showed him how to set both safteys...
Well...long story short...he shot a better group the I did...I was using the hsm 45/250 with hph sabots in front of 80 gr of powder as siters...he was shooting the hsm 40/180 with blue sabots and 50 gr...
He wasnt scared at all...just wanted to show-up dad...but he said the ml felt like his 17 hmr kick...
There will be more info once I get more opportunities to shoot again...but for now thank you all for the info...