Good 50 Cal Load for Bear

[BuffKiller]

Hello All,

I bought a Traditions Buckstalker last week and in 3 weeks I will be going on a solo hunt for bear in Colorado.

I have yet to fire the rifle but I was wondering if anyone good give me some experience about a good load.

I will be hunting in Gambel's Oak (scrub oak) that is very thick and in a draw choke full of berries and brush. I have bowhunted for deer in this area for years and have often bumped into bears within 10 - 15 feet. There is also a chance I might get a shot at between 70-100 yards, but most of the work will be in close.

I am thinking of using a 495 grain powerbelt hollow point and 130 grains of Triple 7 (this is the max powder load recommended by Traditions for their break open muzzleloaders). Has anyone had any experience with this load, to include trajectory/energy data?

I have killed black bear before and I know that they have very heavy leg bones. In the past I have used a shoulder shot for all dangerous game (this includes a black bear, two cape buffalo, and a bull elephant). I have always used a caliber heavy enough to break the bones and shatter the shoulder blade.

Would the 495 gr hollow point have enough energy in this load to break a bear's shoulder/front leg at close range?

Do you have any experience with a load that might be better.

BTW In Colorado you are not allowed to use pelletized powder (i.e. pellets) and must use loose pouring powder and open/iron sights).

Thanks in advance.

BuffKiller

 

[GM54-120]

Im not aware of a 495gr PB hollow point. They do offer a 405gr and 444gr lead flat point but you wont need anywhere near 130gr of T7. I think they offer a large copper plated too. Most big conicals do pretty well with sub 100gr loads. Even 65gr and a 460gr will put down very large game effectively at shorter ranges.

If you really must shoot them faster look into the 338gr PB Platinum. I still would not use 130gr of loose T7 though. Actually i would not even recommend a PB at all considering there are some great 400gr+ conicals available from NoExcuses or Bullshop for much much less. I would also avoid soft lead hollow points for bear. You want penetration and soft lead expands easily without a HP.

 

[BuffKiller]

I might not have identified the bullet properly. It was a 295 grain copperclad conical hollow point with a green plastic belt around the lower third.

Did I say 395 or 495? If so, my mistake.

BuffKiller

 

[BuffKiller]

Also, regarding my thoughts on using a hollow point, I have used Swift A-frames on Cape buffalo at close range very successfully for the first shot. For a bear at extremely close range I want enough power to blast through the shoulder or leg bone, but after that I want maximum shock and tissue damage (especially if my first shot misses heavy bone).

Putting a solid though a bear's lungs at 10 feet is going to get you a very upset bear!

These are my thoughts, but as I have stated, I have no experience with muzzleloaders bullets or loads. Is there a 50 cal bullet similiar in design to the Switft A-frames?


Thanks,


Buff Killer

 

[GM54-120]

The Swift A-Frame is a far superior design and its not made from pure soft lead. It has a solid copper partition between the front and rear portion. The front expands and the rear stays intact. Its not a good comparison or analogy. A 50cal 295gr PB also has a terrible sectional density and ballistic coefficient compared to a 300gr 45cal bullet. Soft lead flat points expand quite well. There is no need for a hollow point when using soft lead especially if you wish to reach the vital organs.

You may want to inform Doc White of your concerns about a solid heavy soft lead flat point bullets not being effective. He has killed nearly any big game you can imagine with heavy lead conical flat points.

http://www.muzzleloading-bullets.com/in ... age321.htm

David O’Farrell and his record bear taken with a single No Excuses bullet from 20 yards. “I have never seen a bullet work so well—it was perfectly mushroomed and stopped him instantly”!

The closest thing to a A-Frame that meets Colorado ML regs would be a Thor solid copper conical. Its design is similar to a Barnes X or Barnes MZ bullet. https://thorbullets.com/

 

[BuffKiller]

Thanks for everyone's response.

You are right in that the Swift A-Frame is not even close to a copper-clad HP.

The point I was trying to make is that I want something that will break a bear's leg/shoulder at close range, and will still cause a lot of soft tissue damage if I miss the bone or try and slip one in behind the front leg (i.e. lung shot) at 70 yards or so.

My logic was that the copper-clad PB, even in a HP would probably break a leg if shot at max velocity (e=mv2) at close range, yet would do a lot of tissue damage if the bone is missed.

I once shot an antelope with a 138grn PSP in .7mm Wby Mag at about 200 yards. I was trying to break the far shoulder (it was quartering away at a dead run) and shot a little behind. The bullet zipped through the rib cage (both sides) without opening up, and we wound up chasing the antelope for about a half mile.

(The following year I made an identical shot on a mule deer at about the same yardage, and the bullet hit the near rib and left a crater-sized hole in the far rib cage (the difference was this bullet hit bone, and the other bullet slipped through the space between the bones).


The last thing I want to do is put two small holes through the lungs of a bear (whether at close range or a 100 yards).

I am not too concerned about sectional density as I will not be shooting past 100 yards (more like 70).

I want to stay away from pure lead bullets (I don't want to mess with patches and lubricants), and can't use sabots by Colorado law.

I was wondering how the two PowerBelts (HP and Pointed) would compare in soft tissue. Anyone have any thoughts about this?

Thanks again,

BuffKiller

 

[BuffKiller]

BTW the Thor bullet looks promising. I haven't seen any in the stores I generally shop at though (Cabelas, Bass Pro Shops, etc).

Anyone know where I can find some in the Denver, CO area?

Thanks,

BuffKiller

 

[CoHiCntry]

BTW the Thor bullet looks promising. I haven't seen any in the stores I generally shop at though (Cabelas, Bass Pro Shops, etc).

Anyone know where I can find some in the Denver, CO area?

Thanks,

BuffKiller

You have to get them directly from the Thor web site. Email him and tell him what you want. He sends them, then you mail a check. I have some in .502 I need to get rid of. PM me if your interested. He sometimes runs out this time of year close to hunting season and they are hard to find otherwise.

 

[ShawnT]

I believe you have to buy the Thor direct from them. You might want to also look into the Hornady FPB. I think it is supposed to be Colorado legal. You can usually find the FPB in stores like Cabela's. Sounds like the Thor and the FPB may be your best bets.

http://www.hornady.com/store/50-Cal-300-gr-FPB/

Here is a link to the Thor.

https://thorbullets.com/

You may have noticed that not too many here shoot Power Belts. One of the biggest issues reported is them blowing up on contact when shot a higher velocities. So they usually recommend lower charges. With good heavy bullets in the muzzleloader the high charge is not always needed to get the Thump you want. Remember you are shooting say a 300grain 45 caliber bullet that is moving like a big heavy Truck verses the smaller diameter lighter 138grain bullet moving like a corvette. Speed is not always what you really need. Most of the bullets we are shooting are normally pistol bullets and are shot at roughly the same speeds.

While not a conical, I used the 300gn Swift A-Frame with only 100 grains of Pyrodex to harvest the Bear in my avatar and it went 430lbs. The bullet preformed perfectly and I broke his neck with the one and only shot needed. I would not have hesitated to use that same load on a shoulder shot either.

 

[GM54-120]

Sectional density has less to do with range and more to do with a bullet holding together on impact. When a bullet turns into a pancake or frags it fails to penetrate well.

NoExuses and BullShops need no additional lube. They come prelubed and its fairly non messy compared to bore butter types. He offers a 400gr if the idea of shooting a little 460gr is not appealing. What patches? You dont need to patch a conical but some people do paper patch them to gain more fps potential.

Im still not sure why you are comparing the performance of a jacketed CF rifle bullet to a soft lead conical. The two are very different and designed to function at different velocities. What do you think killed most of the bison and bears before the 30-40 Krag was invented? The vast majority of the bullets were 405gr+ and moving less than 1500fps.

Order Thors directly. many people do with great satisfaction. Why would you want to pay about the same price for an inferior copper clad bullet that you may be risking your life on?

Sounds to me like you already made up your mind on using Powerbelts. If that is the case, checkout the 338gr PB Platinum or the 405gr+ flat points. They "should" hold together better than the other offerings.

Good Luck

 

[BuffKiller]

Thanks for all the good info. I was leaning towards the powerbelts, just because they are easy to find in a wide range of weights in the stores I frequent.

The Thors sound pretty promising, except for the hassle of buying them (like I said, I only have a couple/three weeks to work up the load, get it sighted in, and then go hunting).

I'll look into some of the other bullets that were recommended.

Again, I really do appreciate the information (even though I might seem to be a devil's advocate at times).

BuffKiller

 

[BuffKiller]

GM 50-120,

I understand your point about all the bears and bison that were killed back in the good old days, but I also have to wonder how many times the bears won or the shooter/bear broke even (i.e. the bear died, but so did the shooter)?

And you are right about me comparing big bore CF cartridges with ML as being apples and oranges, but the underlying physics isn't really that different. It just the tradeoffs are more limited with the MLs. You have to work with large caliber, relativiely slow bullets.

Cheers,

BuffKiller

 

[ShawnT]

It just the tradeoffs are more limited with the MLs. You have to work with large caliber, relativiely slow bullets.

Yea but they hit like a freight train! :wink:

It is common for guys new to MLs to get a bit perplexed comparing the ML to CF rifles. They really don't work quite the same. Better comparison would be to compare your ML to a Pistol of same diameter ( such as 44mag, 45 long colt, 454).

The bullets are designed to work at slower speeds and believe me they still have a lot of Thump. I shot a big buck with a 310 grain .452dia lead bullet. He flipped over sideways (all 4 feet in the air) from the high shoulder shot and the shoulder was broke up. Just use a good 300 grain bullet that is built tough and it will take out the running gear lickety split. Don't be afraid of a good lead bullet either. Even one of those Bull shop or NoExcuses Lead conicals will break bone. I don't really think Black Bear bone os that tough to break but the thing I am always concerned about is getting though the Thick layer of fat that is covering up the meat on those bones. That fat can cause a lesser bullet to start expanding a bit soon and slow down the bullet. Just a better reason to use a well constructed bullet.

As a centerfire comparison look at the speed of your 7 Wby mag in comparison to say the 45-70 or the 358win. Big difference. My 358 is only shooting a 325grain bullet about 2400fps but will flip a black bear. Saw mine do it once.

If you are running short on time to get up and running, then the Hornady FPB may be easier to obtain locally (300 or 350grain), some have reported good luck with them. Between the 2 I would go for the Thor but it might be worth a try to find a box of FPB locally. I do believe Thor also has sample packs that have a couple sizes so you can match them to your bore then order just the size you need for your rifle. The FPB is one size fit all.

 

[GM54-120]

If the Hornady 350gr FPB fits the bore, i would try that over a PB.

 

[CoHiCntry]

If the Hornady 350gr FPB fits the bore, i would try that over a PB.

I agree. Although I've killed western big game with power belts in the past, I wouldn't recommend them. It can be done but when the trophy's on the line I'll not be using a Powerbelt if there's any other choices. The FPB seems to get good reviews and you can pick them up at Bass Pro or Cabelas in Denver.

 

[BuffKiller]

ShawnT, etal,

I think I will run over to Cabela's and try to buy a box of FPBs. I am thinking 100 grains of Triple 7 with either the 300 or 350 gr bullet.

One question though, does the Triple 7 come in different powder sizes (i.e. FFg, FFFg, etc), or is it just one type of powder?

Thanks again.


BuffKiller

 

[BuffKiller]

CoHiCntry,

Thanks for the offer on the Thor's, but I don't have an inside micrometer, and I would hate to spend time and money trying to get the correct fit for my rifle.

At this stage, I really need to start doing some shooting!


BuffKiller

 

[GM54-120]

Yes Triple7 comes in both 2FG and 3FG. Either will work fine in a 50cal ML. You rifle will tell you what it prefers. Ive used 3FG even in a 54cal without any issues. 3FG will yield a little more FPS than 2FG when measured by volume.

BTW a mix of 50/50 windex/isopropyl alcohol makes a good swabbing solution for between shots. Triple7 forms a hard "crud ring" about where the projectile sits on the powder. You may need to swab between each shot to prevent it. Its very important the projectile is always firmly seated on the powder.

You can make the patches up ahead of time and store them in a sealed container. They only need to be lightly damp. Squeeze out the excess from the patches. Swab slowly in short strokes to prevent a stuck patch and rod.

 

[ShawnT]

Yes Triple7 comes in both 2FG and 3FG. Either will work fine in a 50cal ML. You rifle will tell you what it prefers. Ive used 3FG even in a 54cal without any issues. 3FG will yield a little more FPS than 2FG when measured by volume.

BTW a mix of 50/50 windex/isopropyl alcohol makes a good swabbing solution for between shots. Triple7 forms a hard "crud ring" about where the projectile sits on the powder. You may need to swab between each shot to prevent it. Its very important the projectile is always firmly seated on the powder.

You can make the patches up ahead of time and store them in a sealed container. They only need to be lightly damp. Squeeze out the excess from the patches. Swab slowly in short strokes to prevent a stuck patch and rod.

Yep, What he said!

 

[BuffKiller]

Thanks for all the info. It's off to the store.

BuffKiller