Knight KP1 and Inline Newbie

[Maineboy]

Last year I purchased a used stainless KP1 with both a 30-06 barrel and a ML in 50 caliber. The ML barrel came with both the FPJ and bare 209 breech plugs, the FPJ plug appears to have never been used and still hasn't. My only ML experience prior to this purchase was a TC Renegade using Pyrodex and black powder; I never shot it much, just sighted it in before hunting season and once in a while when shooting with friends. It always went bang when it was supposed to.
When I first shot the ML barrel in the KP1, I used loose pyrodex, regular Winchester 209 shotgun primers, and Maxi balls that I cast myself. I experienced several hang fires, and I attributed it to the age of the pyrodex, which was purchased in the mid 90s. I also did a little reading and found that the primers were not what was recommended for Pyrodex. I purchased some triple 7 powder and the "correct" Winchester 777 primers and had no issues while sighting it in, I got great accuracy and immediate ignition. My favorite projectile is a 350 grain bullet I cast for my 45-70 in Harvester Crush Rib Sabots which combined with 100 grain equivalent charge of 777 has proved to be a very accurate combo.
When I took the KP1 hunting, I had a huge problem. On the last day of the ML season, I tracked a decent buck to his bed. He and I saw each other about the same time and he stood up facing me about 60 yards away. I put the crosshairs on his throat and when I pulled the trigger heard only a pop. The primer failed to ignite the triple 7. The temperature was about 25 degrees when this happened so I don't know if that contributed to the failure to fire. About an hour later, when I was back at my truck, I the gun fired exactly as it should. I am very careful when cleaning the ML and pay special attention to the breech plug and I hope that a dirty plug was not the problem.
I am now considering Blackhorn 209 as powder but am concerned about ignition issues with it in my KP1. The FPJ and bare 209 breech plugs are very different. The bare plug has a convex surface while the FPJ plug is deeply concave and appears to have a shorter flash channel even when you consider the primer sits on top of it. Why? The FPJ flash channel will accept a 1/8 inch drill bit, the bare plug flash hole is considerably narrower. Both flash holes are the same diameter. I get a lot of blowback with the bare plug, and I can see that the primer is just below flush when seated. The primer is also loose in that there is side to side movement when seated. Would shimming help with that? I would prefer to use Blackhorn 209 and the bare plug and not have to mess with the FPJ but I would like some expert advice before I commit to something thinking it might not work.

 

[ShawnT]

Maineboy,

Welcome to the Forum!

I don't have one of the KP1 rifles. There were not too many here that got one. I tried a couple times to get one but never connected.

The Standard Blue box Win209 is actually hotter then the 777 Primer. The 777 primer was made cooler to help prevent or lessen the crud ring formed from firing 777 or Pyrodex. It is very puzzling you had better ignition with the 777 primer over the standard win209.

A couple questions for you.

The FPJ flash channel will accept a 1/8 inch drill bit, the bare plug flash hole is considerably narrower.

Are you sure that the Bare primer plug is really smaller than 1/8 inch?

Knight made the flash channels in some rifles down to 1/8 inch and others are larger, never heard of one smaller than 1/8". We have seen some shooters come here and have this problem and one of the things seen is that if that rifle was shot by the previous owner with BH 209 powder, and did not properly clean the flash channel, the blow back can and will cause a carbon build up that will not only close up the flash channel but even cause it to look like it was the normal flash channel size. What we suggested was to try a smaller drill bit turned by hand and see if you can scrape some carbon out, then move up to the next drill bit till you can't scrape anymore out, My guess is that it is closed up more than you think so it don't let the flame/pressure from the primer get all the way to the flash hole.

When you say the primer has "Side movement" Are you checking this by inserting the primer by hand?

The Primers normally seal on the bottom of the pocket instead of the sides.

Since the KP1 is a break action then the primer length is something to pay attention too to prevent blow back. The Seal is created by headspace, the standing breech pressing that primer in till it seats in the bottom of the primer pocket. Win209 primers are about the longest primer. If you have a caliper try measuring a new Win 209 primer, then put that primer in the rifle and close it up. Now open the action and remove and measure the primer length. If it is the same, you have no "Crush" on the primer so it is not seating in the bottom of the primer pocket when the standing breech presses forward on the primer when you closed the rifle. This will cause blow back and lead to poor ignition with BH209. A Crush of .002 to .003" is normally good with the Win209. Shimming the pocket bottom can help that. BUT... Check on that flash channel a bit farther. If that flash channel is closed up too much that too may contribute to the blow back.

Have you measured the Flash hole to see what size it is?

I seem to remember one of our past members got his shooting BH with a different plug, possibly one that was flat faced. He has not posted in several years though. I wrote down the plug and part number he used somewhere and will see if I still have that somewhere.

One other option is to see of you can get a new plug. BH209 fired with 209 primer will be much harder on the flash holes so they don't last forever.

I personally don't think the FPJ plug is good for BH powder but fine for all other powders.

I've never been much for break action rifles, they just don't fit me or feel right to me, but I did like the looks of the KP1 and would love to handle one sometime.

 

[ShawnT]

I could not find the note that has the part number for the plug, but I did find the old thread I was thinking off. Seems the Plug for the Vision was the one he used in His KP1 and was Flat faced. He mentioned a plug that had been used in the KP1 had magnets in it. If you have that much side slop maybe the magnets are missing??

You can read about it here.
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=13235&hilit=KP1

just found this one too. Here is another thread and it has part numbers. Don't know if they are still available from Knight.

#M900046 plugs

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=19043&hilit=KP1

Spoke too soon. They do still have the Breech plug for them.

http://www.muzzleloaders.com/product/vi ... eech-plug/

 

[Maineboy]

ShawnT, thank you for replying to my post. Answering your questions:

I only tried the standard Winchester 209 primers with my old Pyrodex, not with 777. I read that the Winchester 777 primers were correct for 777 powder. I don't know if the standard primers were the problem or the old Pyrodex. Some of it had clumped in the bottle.
"Are you sure that the Bare primer plug is really smaller than 1/8 inch? " yes, it is much smaller. I don't have a drill bit that fits it exactly, They are either too big or too small. I have no idea what the previous owner fired in it, I bought the gun from a dealer who took it in on trade, but I'll try to figure out if it is crud narrowing the flash channel. As to the flash hole, I have nothing small enough to measure it. The flash hole on both plugs will allow a small paper clip to enter. Would 209 crud narrow the flash hole as well? By "side movement, what I mean is when a primer is inserted, it is held against the bottom of the primer pocket by magnetic force. It is not a tight fit on the sides, there is room to wiggle the primer around. Would that allow for blowby? There is absolutely no "crush" on the primer when the action is closed. The primer is recessed a few thousandths below the back of the barrel and it does not come in contact with the action when it is closed. I believe it needs to be shimmed. Knight still sells breech plugs for the KP1 and if need be, I'll buy a new one.

I really like this rifle, both the black powder and 30-06 barrels are very accurate and handle well. I was looking for a stainless steel synthetic stocked rifle for hunting in rain and snow and this one certainly fit the bill. I was pretty disappointed when the ML failed to fire last fall and I hope to get the problem corrected by hunting season.

 

[ShawnT]

The Standard win209 primer should lite off any powder you try. The 777 primer was developed as a cooler primer to help reduce the crud ring that forms when shooting 777 or even Pyrodex. I would say your right about the Pyrodex. Clumped up Pyrodex is a sign it somehow drew in some moisture. Probably best to get rid of it, and start fresh. Those 777 Primers are not really for BH209 powder either, too cool for good ignition, especially in a leaky breech plug.

Read through that first link I put in the second post.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=13235&hilit=KP1

Past Member Spitpatch said those plugs with the Magnets leaked Blow Back bad. That newer plug don't have the magnets in it anymore and should be good for BH209 too. Not sure if shimming that plug would buy you much. Now this is just a guess on my part but I would say the side slop you have is just something they added to make it easier for the primer to find its way into the primer pocket easier and let the magnet pull it in and hold it in place. I have not seen that plug first hand so size of shims are something you may have to experiment with. Another shim option you could try is an O-Ring. Either one would be a guessing game without a caliper to measure it up with. Not sure how that magnet will act with the shims either. The New plugs don't have that magnet is what I understand. Don't know of anyone that uses magnets anymore. I would bet it don't have the same side to side slop in it and it may well be a slightly longer plug to get a little crush fit on the primer, so it might be your best option.

The Flash holes don't really get a carbon build up in them like the Flash channel does. They could occasionally get a little piece block the hole but a primer would blow it out. I just flush the Flash hole with something like Carb cleaner or if I had canned air in the car with me (I'm a service tech so usually do) I would put some solvent in the flash channel and then blow it through the flash hole. No need to "Scrape out" the flash hole. I use pin gauges to measure mine to keep track of the size of the flash holes. I could be wrong but would still bet that the original size of the Flash channel in that plug is larger and at least 1/8" or more. Not sure what your paper clip would measure.... I just measured one I have and it measured .033" which if yours is close to mine it is more then large enough to ignite Pyrodex or 777 or BH209.

If you have a drill bit that is smaller and goes into the flash channel, turn it and pull it to one side or wiggle it while turning it and see if you get any scrapings fall out. If so, I would run to the hardware store with the plug and get a couple inexpensive drill bits and try to get one smaller that will not quite start and turn it by hand or better with a Pin Vise. If you get one in and carbon comes out keep moving up in size till you can't get one in there bu hand and your probably back to metal then.

Just curious but when you set up to fire the first round, do you swab out the bore and pop a few primers before loading powder?

When is hunting season for you? What part of the country are you in?

 

[Maineboy]

ShawnT, I live in far Northern Maine, and while you can hunt throughout the November deer season with a muzzle loader, I hunt with my centerfire rifles until the regular season ends. There is a special season the week after Thanksgiving for front loaders only. In most of the State, it is a 2 week period, just not way up here. Our weather by then is what many would call winter. (My idea of winter is what comes after Christmas until mid March) Yes, I do swab out the bore and fire 2 or 3 caps in the rifle to make sure everything is clear before loading the gun. I do not unload it every day after hunting, just remove the cap and store the gun in my truck to avoid temperature extremes. After the season is over, I fire the load in the gun, clean it well, then put it away until I get ready for the next season. I followed this ritual with my Renegade for over 20 years and did it last year with the KP1 as well.

I did read through that link you provided and I think my best bet will be to buy a new breech plug. I just hope the breech plug Knight is selling is what worked for Spitpatch, not a copy of the one I have. When Knight sold the KP1 it came with the FPJ plug and the bare 209 plug had to be purchased separately. I am going to work on this old one and see if I can get it to fire correctly. I'll start by soaking the flash hole in carb cleaner and/or Kroil and scraping it out with drill bits. I'm pretty curious to see if it is crud inside or was made with a smaller than standard channel.

I want to thank you for taking time to help me. If you have any other ideas let me know what they are and I will post my "progress" making this thing shoot right.

 

[Maineboy]

Update: ShawnT I started working on the flash channel and you were right, crud, a lot of it, was the culprit. I soaked it in Kroil for about 5 minutes, then worked the smallest drill bit I had through the channel and immediately began pulling out crud. Within 15 minutes, I was able to get a 1/8 drill bit all the way to the flash hole. I flushed everything out several more times with additional Kroil, the 1/8 in drill bit, and compressed air. I wonder why the gun fired at all! I am soaking it for another hour or so then will give it one last cleaning. Now to address the headspace problem. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction and I did order a new breech plug from Knight.

 

[ShawnT]

Very Cool! Great news. artyman: Keep at it and you might find that the flash channel is a bit larger that 1/8" too. I think one of my plugs takes #18 drill but and one #19. The previous owner probably just did not know how to properly clean the plug. Maybe that's why he traded it off. His loss your gain. :yeah:

We are always happy to help a fellow front stuffer. :wink: :yeah: Your ordering the new BP is what I would do. It is also a good way to make sure that the flash hole is new when buying a used rifle. If you can post up a pic of the rifle. WE love Eye candy here! :wink: :lol:

I've been up that way on bear hunts 3 times and am planning to come back up next year if everything works out, Island Falls area. Northern Maine is beautiful. 8) I'm on Long Island in NY.

Yes, I do swab out the bore and fire 2 or 3 caps in the rifle to make sure everything is clear before loading the gun. I do not unload it every day after hunting, just remove the cap and store the gun in my truck to avoid temperature extremes. After the season is over, I fire the load in the gun, clean it well, then put it away until I get ready for the next season.

I do all that myself, A tad different than some though and except for just putting them away til next season. :wink: I only ask this as I was just curious if maybe some oil or such may have contributed to the issue.

The thing I do a bit different is Firing the caps/primers on a dry patch. If you have not tried this there is a real simple way to see how much fire you get to the powder without pouring any powder in. It also adds a very small amount of pressure to help burn away any oil or such left behind. What I do is swab out the bore and dry it with a couple patches. Next Take a Dry patch and run that down till it hits the Breech plug and Leave the ramrod with patch there. Next put a Primer in and point it in a safe direction and fire it (The ram rod will not leave the barrel but still should not be pointed at anyone). Next push back down to the BP and then pull it out and look at the face of the patch. This will tell you how much fire got to the powder area. I do that 3 times myself prior to the first loading. This is a great way to be testing your ignition when you have problem and can do it at home since no powder is involved. If you only see some darkening of the patch or just a couple threads burnt. Then I would work on it at home till they are burn real good#11 caps don't burn up the patch completely but you can see that the flame is getting there with plenty to light the powder. A Good seal with a 209 primer can burn all the patch on the face of the jag away. So they will look something like this.

This is from my Modified Knight KRB7 (Rolling block). Prior to modifying this rifles plug, It only burned a few threads away. Now it burns the whole face away. The trick with the patch above is how I did my testing at home, prior to going to the range. This rifle, un-modified, never failed to fire 777 and Pyrodex but whould not fire BH and the primers, and action, were very black from the blow back.

These are from my Knight Ultralite

So I am sure that you can get yours working this way too.

I seriously doubt that the new plug has magnets in it. I don't recall anyone ever saying the Vision plug came with Magnets. I think those magnets got discontinued.

Not that it is an issue but if you stick with Pyrodex or 777, you don't need Kroil or any solvents. Plain old Windex is good, some mix Windex and alcohol in a 50/50 mix. If you decide to go to BH209 in the future, you can use the same solvents for cleaning that you do with your CF rifles.

 

[Maineboy]

Thanks for the ramrod and cleaning patch info. I have never heard of that and will definitely try it. I think I'll try using O rings to correct the headspace problem and if that works, try metal spacers. If that doesn't work, I will have a new breech plug and hopefully that will end my headspace-blowback problems. I would still like to try BH in the KP1 but 777 may work out okay now that I have a "normal" breech plug. Trying new stuff is lots of fun! I did get a pretty good deal on the KP1, I'd never seen or heard of the model before last summer. It's too bad they don't produce it any longer. I'll post a picture as soon as I can figure out how.

FYI, I live in Westmanland, which is north and west of Caribou on Little Madawaska Lake. We are surrounded by forest and to go hunting, all I have to do is cross the road. Paradise!

 

[bacass]

Welcome maineboy, glad to see you are getting to the bottom of the issue. Shawn and the whole gang here were a great help to me as well.
You can't get much farther north than that without a passport! I'm in the zone 9 region above Moosehead lake.
I feel your pain to have a misfire lose a buck. Even with good snow last year I couldn't find a decent buck to track. Plenty of moose though.
Brad

 

[Maineboy]

Thank you bcass, I live in zone 3, with a likewise high moose low deer population.

 

[Maineboy]

I received the new breech plug from Knight this morning. The new plug is different, flat faced as opposed to the dome faced old model and not magnetic. A Winchester 209 primer is a tighter fit and it appears to sit a bit higher so I am hoping to get a crush fit and no blowback with this one. I won't be doing any shooting until next week as we are in the middle of a busy weekend.