Lemon?

[Sparkitoff1]

I almost hate to write this and certainly feel a little embarrassed and frustrated putting this out there. I have a little percussion rifle I put together from parts many years ago. The barrel is a 24" 1:48" twist .50 caliber with Spanish proof marks (no brand name). The lock, stock and other parts came from various sources but they all do their job and work. The most similar rifle(s) out there on the market would be a Traditions Deer Hunter or a Lyman Deer Slayer in terms of size, lines and operation. This rifle is consistently inconsistent.

I can go to the range and get a nice group. Sometimes a 5-shot group. But, without fail it will soon fall apart. I have tried no less than 12 different projectiles, 3 powders, powder charges between 50 and 100 grains, etc. Always the same story. "Oh look, it groups nice". Put the sights where the group is where it should be. Another nice group. Next range day …. no group, not at point of impact.

In order to help sort this out, I have the RMC open peep rear sight with a fiber optic front sight. Additionally, this rifle has see-through scope mounts with a Leupold Intermediate Eye Relief (Scout) scope. Everything is tightened down good, and I am able to get a group with sights, check that it is indeed a group with scope and they will match (although usually tighter group with scope due to magnification). So, in short the sights are not the problem.

The barrel is bedded, the tang is bedded and I check the screw periodically (it has never moved while shooting). I changed the nipples many times using the same brand (they work fine). The stock key fits the slot snug and stays in place all the way in. The hooked breach fits snug in the tang slot. Cleaning is pumping soapy water, dry patch, 91% alcohol patch and electronic contact cleaner spray through nipple and drum. One WD-40 moist patch in barrel and stored muzzle down. Prior to range, one blast of electronic contact cleaner through nipple and one swab with 91% alcohol. All shooting is off bench with stock rested below the tenion and soft pad under the grip.

Here is an example of just last week. Start with clean rifle. Loaded 80 grain Triple 7 FFFg, a 245 grain Powerbelt and used CCI #11 Mag cap. Shoot 5 at 50. Group is 2.5". Go to 100-yards. First 3 shots are 2.5" group. Next shot is off 8" bullseye. Next shot is not on paper. Shoot 1 shot back at 50-yards. 6" high and 11 O'clock. Waited a minimum time of 3 minutes between shots. Some of that time spent preparing the next load. Quit for the day.

Next day. Try Hornaday PA Conicals. Load 70 grains Pyrodex. Big group at 50. 80 grains Pyrodex. Group shrinks. 85 grains Pyrodex. 1.5" group. Go to 100-yards. 2.5" group. Move scope to bullseye. 2.5" group. This is swabbing with alcohol patch between shots, down, turn the rod against breach plug, out. 3 minutes between shots. Shoot sights at 50-yards. 4" group. Go back to 100-yards....no shot on 8" bull. Next shot 5 O'clock. Use sights instead of scope. 3 O'clock and 8 O'clock. Range clean rifle (no soapy water pump). Switch to Triple 7. At 100-yards two shots touching, next shot 5" away. Back to 50-yards. Two shots are 6 inches apart using scope. Two shots are 5 inches apart using sights.

Next day. Use Green Crush Rib Sabot with .429 240 grain XTP. 80 grains of Triple 7. First 5-shots in bullseye at 50-yards about 3" group. Go to 100-yards. 5-shot group about 4.5" low and right with scope. 5-shots with sights 5" low and same sized group. 90 grains of Triple 7, same results. 100 grains of Triple 7, same results. (I went to more powder because the recovered sabots were barely opened up and a full 25 yards downrange. Next 5 shots do 10" group and all over the paper. Range clean rifle. Switch to 300 grain XTP with all other components the same. 50-yards 2" group with sights. 2" group with scope (same POI). Go to 100-yards. 5-shots 3.5" group 3 O'clock with scope. 5-shots 5" group at 7 O'clock with sights. Next 5-shot groups with scope first shot cannot be found. Next shot 7" high. Next shot 5 inches to the right. Go to sights. First shot in black. Next shot 4 inches low. Next shot 4 inches right of that one.

Sorry to bore you with 3-days worth of details, but this has transpired probably 25 times over the last 10 years. The rifle is never consistent. One time I shot 10-shots with 300 grain XTP, Green Crush Rib Sabot and 100 grains Triple 7. All 10 were in a 6" bullseye at 80 yards (the range at that time). I went elk hunting and killed a cow elk, hitting it at 60-yards and a follow-up shot at 40-yards open sights. Another year I got 5-shots into 1.5" with a Cheap Shot Sabot and 80 grains Triple 7, within the first 12-shots at the range. Cleaned rifle and the next day killed a hog at 70-yards. Couldn't get a group with that combo the following week! Went to 60 grains Goex FFFg and a .490 ball in .015 pre-lubed patch. Got a 2.5" group at 50-yards open sights. Friend used the rifle and killed a ram on a ranch, about 35-yards. In spite of the rifle having been used successfully on those few occasions, it is so inconsistent that I don't want to use it for hunting until it is consistent.

So $200 of parts has cost me probably $800 in bullets, caps and powder trying to get consistent accuracy. It has gotten to the point where I am about to give up. I need another set of "eyes" to suggest something I may be missing. I have but one more "try" left in me. I am going to use .490 ball, .018 pillow ticking with dry-lube cut at muzzle and a few doses of Goex to see if one charge is clearly better than another. My reasoning is that I think the rifling cannot tolerate even the smallest bit of hard fouling like lead, copper or plastic. Maybe a tight, fairly dry patch with swabbing between shots with keep the rifling up to doing its job. It seems the first 6-12 shots do group. That's plenty for hunting however I have no way to do a full soapy water pump on the range between groups and I have never experienced this with the other dozen rifles.

I've provided a lot of info, vented and confessed. If you have any idea, suggestion or anecdote whatsoever I am all ears and willing to try it. After all the effort there has to be some point where I cut my losses and move on and I am about there with this rifle.

 

[Sparkitoff1]

Here is what the little lemon looks like. The black comb piece is attached by a single screw that goes into a brass fitting in the stock. It is easily removed for open sights or can be switched to a taller or shorter one for a different shooter. There is a little Angel fitting into the stock.

 

[Buck Conner1]

That's life when you use something you can't retrieve (spent bullets). Personally I like your pictures of the "Little Guy", cool weapon, thanks for sharing. :thumbs up:

Sometimes we are stuck with just shooting what the gun likes and stop wasting time with what others say. I always remember what my father use to say "Everyone has an option, just like assholes - we all have one." :cheers:



:cheers:

 

[exMember]

I'd swab with a water based cleaner. Alcohol is great to remove moisture, but not that great at removibg fouling.

 

[Fyrstyk]

Have you tried wrapping a patch on a bronze bore brush for swabbing between shots? The brush just might remove the lead/plastic fouling that may be causing the accuracy problems. Just a guess on my part, but it has worked for others I know that had somewhat similar problems.

 

[msellers]

Have a modern rifle that did similar things, everything felt secure and good. Finally just started checking and re-tightening all screws. It ended up being a scope base that wasn't tightened down the same. Allowed the base to shift and affect POI. Also, had a shot out scope that did that. Might be worth a look. Also like your little deer killer there.
Mike

 

[yellowlab]

I have a traditions deer hunter that "looks" like the same gun, may or may not be. Mine is also .50/1-48 it has fairly deep riflings (haven't measured just a visual). I likes .490 prbs with a thicker patch .15 ish and mid range powder charge 60/75 grns. It does ok but consistent with conicals but only if I but a wad behind them. Tried various sabots with limited success and only at higher "near max" charges. Mine only shoots well with real blackpowder and prefers 3f, hang fires with any of the subs. My uneducated GUESS would be that you need to "like frontier said swab with water based cleaner" and try a higher charge to get the skirt/base of those sabots to engrave and seal more consistently in the deeper riflings. With conical lead flat base bullets mine has a noticeable preference for a over powder wad, thicker being better.

 

[Sparkitoff1]

Thanks all. I will take a breath and try a few different things again.

 

[Winter Hawk]

It could be that you are using longer bullets (I have no idea what they look like, never having used those you name) and the rifling isn't fast enough to stabilize them. Try the 250 grain Lee R.E.A.L. I have had decent groups with those in a .50 which had 1:60 twist. They are shorter and so the slower twist stabilizes them okay. My .45 caliber rifle on the other hand spreads the 250 grain R.E.A.L. like a shot gun load; same twist rate but the bullet is a little longer than the .50 bullet.

 

[elkeater]

Does the wedge pin go in and out easily, consistently?

 

[Sparkitoff1]

The wedge pin is secure and does not move around and needs a pretty good tap to remove it

 

[elkeater]

You might have too much tension there. Worth a try to relieve it. Filing or bending the wedge.

 

[Sparkitoff1]

Thanks, I'll try that too...

 

[elkeater]

I like to push it in with my thumb and remove it with a slight tap and pull with tool.

 

[Hanshi]

Experimenting with black powder and a patched round ball might be worthwhile. Your rifle looks like a Traditions "DeerHunter" .50 I used for nearly 25 years. I tested it with conicals and it didn't like them. PRB, which I use exclusively, turned that little rifle into a real "pleaser". I took a number of deer with it.

 

[Sparkitoff1]

Well today I tried a different powder altogether. Previously I had used Goex FFFg and Triple 7 FFFg because I use those most often in other rifles and handguns. I use Pyrodex RS only in one shotgun. I tried it today and it kind of worked. Where the Triple 7 was giving a "group" of 6" for 5-shots at 100-yards (all over the 6" circle) the Pyrodex put 3 shots right on top of the bullseye circle in about a 2.5" group. It looked promising but I ran out of caps! I am determined to get this rifle sorted out soon...