Manufactured guns vrs custom guns

[Dougs136Schwartz]

I thought I would pose this question to see others opinions. My self I can't see a lot of difference in accuracy between a quality Manufactured rifle compared to a custom built rifle . The manufactured rifle seems to be just as accurate in some cases but is not built to take hundreds of shots nor should it be because it is designed for hunters . The custom rifles may have a slight accuracy advantage but in my opinion are much more user friendly and built to take hundreds if not thousands of shots . With today's high tech Machining capabilities a lesser quality gun can still be a real shooter .

The upcoming Friendship match will be very interesting . There are a lot of excellent shooters that show up at Friendship every event held . I'm very curious if some of these same shooters decide to shoot in the manufactures division. The scores will show if I'm right or wrong .

As far as dividing guns (custom vrs manufactures.) I agree I think they should be split up . It's just very hard to decide where to draw the line . I for one am glad I don't have to make that sort of decision . I appreciate the guys that do have to make those decisions and realize they can't please everyone .

 

[Lee 9]

Well I don't go to Friendship anymore age and injuries from a car wreck, but I am wondering about this line drawing. For instance my Prohunter has a 1-28 twist barrel from a different company than the one that made the gun which has a 270 barrel. Would that be considered custom?

 

[long shot]

Let us not confuse Manufactures Match with Production . The Match at the Nationals has always been for Any Production Inline Muzzle Loader. It was not ever really enforced . I think some rifles in production vs. custom will hold their own. I also believe , once rifle is established in accuracy it has more to do with the shooter himself than the rifle. The scores from last May Matches really proves that to me. I started this hole thing to prove tat Production Rifles have way more potential then given credit for. It some how grew to all kinds of variations in rifles some custom builds to modified production.
It doesn't seem much but in the game of target shooting . The rifle with little more edge will get a X versus a 10. To me this is basis for custom rifle in accuracy. Other things being fit, length of pull, ect.

 

[cayuga]

I have numerous factory made rifles and as of now two custom made flintlock rifles. I think that the top of the line factory rifles do have a place in the accuracy equation. The major difference I see in accuracy shooting with my rifles is ... me. I have a great friend that purchased a custom made center fire rifle. He was sure this would make the edge over people like me that shot a Ruger M77 and an old Remington 742. What he discovered was his rifle was no more accurate them mine. He was sure it was the rifle. Then I gave him the hard truth. It was his shooting skills that needed work. His breathing was wrong, his address of the rifle needed work, and definitely his trigger squeeze. I think he was gun shy.

The same holds true in muzzle loaders I own. When flintlocks got me excited about shooting again. The one main thing I had to slow down, practice, and define was muzzle flash. I found it absolutely crucial that trigger pull (one reason I love a set trigger), and then ignore the pan flash and also following through the shot. Without working on those basics I think I would only be a mediocre marksman. My factory made rifles are very accurate but I do not shoot extreme ranges. My custom rifles seem to do as well, and all this I admit is ... me. If you have the skills, then I think a factory rifle might be all you need. If you want to do long range target shooting, then just for any edge it could add, I think the custom is going to make a difference.

 

[ENCORE50A]

Custom vs Production Muzzleloaders

Just opinions but, my first would be to separate the .45’s from the .50’s. NRA competitions don’t match .223’s with .338’s. That said, why would you not separate .45’s and .50’s? That, without question would be one of the easiest, quickest, most easily understood and accepted by all shooters.

Then break down the .45’s, into two builds, where rifles may be older, but they were readily available at one time to anyone wishing to purchase one, in one class. Those heavily modified, fast twist barrels, or customs would be in a different class.

Then break down the .50cal’s. Box stock rifles with minor changes, such as a nose bolt kit, trigger spring change, or breech plug change, in one class. Then any heavily modified rifles or custom rifles in another class.

 

[bestill]

I think it simply works itself out. It is competitive shooting and some matches revolve around a national title.
I think back to high school wear i was a above average distance runner but somd fellas were 6'5" and ran like a deer but i still tried hard and practiced alot and did i win no but they new i was there trying.

Back to the guns . Yes the matches could be broke up several ways.
Sabots
Sabotless
Weight
Magnification
Stock design
Break action
Bolt action
Blackpowder
Subs
Open sights
If we did this everybody would win or place.

Or how bout let rules stand and i feel without a doubt a fella competes and loves muzzleloaders and gets beat bad he will go home and shoot more and develop his skills and come back.
And do better then if needed will have a different muzzleloader.

Most people in usa drive suv's. But at US nationals they dont drag race suv's.

Just my thoughts.

2013 there were several 50 cals and sabots competing and amazingly most all those shooters are still competing and shooting much better scores and equipment.

I will bet the top 10 shooters now will be same top ten shooters in production class and if make sabot class be same group of shooters.

Why? Because we love muzzleloaders and love competing and all love a challenge. And support nmlra and our sport.

What is needed is a record turnout in these matchs and this would allow more classes and opportunity to expand.

 

[wolfer]

for a mfg class how about guns of "current" manufacture. Like within 3 years and should represent 90% of retail sales. And no mods, no bedding, crowning, shoot with rod in holder/thimbles, and retail package bullets and powder, original ignition system, like most hunters shoot. Outside of that it's a "custom" class and can be divided according to whatever you want. If you want to have a mfg competition then they should be mfg sponsored and shoot only mfg items. Otherwise it's a "run what you brung" deal. 99% of hunters have no interest in what happens in Friendship and they certainly buy 99.8% of new mfg guns. It's a nich thing of inline competition and everybody is scratching for a bit of advantage. I enjoy seeing the results and whos gear did how good with a good shooter. then I'll pays my money and takes my own chances. A whold bunch of guns are sold retail and will never be represented at the competition range, and they make up a huge amount of sales. Sorta like I have never seen a lever gun at camp perry and damn few M1A1 in the deer woods. Lotta variables out there and for me it's your choice + I'll make up my own mind. W

 

[Dougs136Schwartz]

I think there is several guns that will shoot much better than people think .In the right hands . Rick said it well when he said Manufactured guns don't get the credit they deserve when it comes to accuracy . As far as rules and classes . I could care less as long as we know well in advance just so money or time is not spent needlessly. I would be perfectly fine if we all had to shoot CVA Optima s and sabots ( just for example ) but what fun would that be ? I just like to shoot rules and classes are secondary . I appreciate very much what Friendship is trying to do .

 

[ENCORE50A]

I think there is several guns that will shoot much better than people think .In the right hands . Rick said it well when he said Manufactured guns don't get the credit they deserve when it comes to accuracy . As far as rules and classes . I could care less as long as we know well in advance just so money or time is not spent needlessly. I would be perfectly fine if we all had to shoot CVA Optima s and sabots ( just for example ) but what fun would that be ? I just like to shoot rules and classes are secondary . I appreciate very much what Friendship is trying to do .

Certainly its becoming rare to see the most common of all hunting rifles on the line, the .50cal.
Here's the equipment list for this springs match. How many of the most common .50cal hunting rifles are on the board?



The numbers of shooters attending are not increasing, but decreasing. Its becoming a Knight rifle shoot. Now I have absolutely nothing against Knight rifles!
But with all competitions, competitors are looking to improve. However its not bringing in the new shooters.
The changing of rules, for reasons that can only be speculated, deter more new shooters than it will ever attract.
Before my injury I had a couple new shooters that were coming down, and I'd offered to not shoot myself just to help them get started. That went to pot along with my knee (to be fixed Wednesday ). However, once they heard of the latest rule change requiring prone (or no bench) at 200m and 300m, they now have no interest.

The one good thing about all the custom rifles that are showing up, is that it created another classification.

 

[GM54-120]

Nothing is preventing Rem, CVA, UF, Traditions ect ect ect from offering a 45cal. They simply choose not to offer one although its been rumored for about a year that CVA will offer some new kind of 45cal. They do offer a 45cal barrel for the Apex but last i heard the Apex is gone or greatly reduced production now. It would take CVA less than a week to tool up a 45cal fast twist from a Scout V2 45/70 so R&D cost excuses are worthless in their case. The Scout and Optima are super similar.

If its turning into a Knight shoot then blame all the other companies that refuse to offer a 45cal rifle. They are legal to hunt deer with in virtually any state. No matter how you slice it, a 50cal sabot shooter is gunna have a hard road ahead of him shooting against sabotless 45s.

 

[ENCORE50A]

Nothing is preventing Rem, CVA, UF, Traditions ect ect ect from offering a 45cal. They simply choose not to offer one although its been rumored for about a year that CVA will offer some new kind of 45cal. They do offer a 45cal barrel for the Apex but last i heard the Apex is gone or greatly reduced production now. It would take CVA less than a week to tool up a 45cal fast twist from a Scout V2 45/70 so R&D cost excuses are worthless in their case. The Scout and Optima are super similar.

If its turning into a Knight shoot then blame all the other companies that refuse to offer a 45cal rifle. They are legal to hunt deer with in virtually any state. No matter how you slice it, a 50cal sabot shooter is gunna have a hard road ahead of him shooting against sabotless 45s.

UF will not build a .45cal. muzzleloader, because UF doesn't build target or competition rifles, they build hunting rifles.

Other manufacturers tried building and selling .45cal rifles and they fell on their faces and most only offer what hunters want, a .50cal. Remington is rumored to be in the initial phases of a new rifle, also a .50cal.

I agree that its no easy task to separate rifle classes. It is clear though how to separate the target or custom rifles. The M5 class handled that. An equipment race is what created the M5. A GOOD THING.

For the common hunter who spends $300 or $400 on a rifle because its what they can afford, the purchase of an additional rifle and equipment may be out of his/her reach. Just as recognized and stated by the president of the NMLRA on one of the FB pages, you can't expect shooters who buy rifles from Cabela's or Bass Pro, to want to shoot with thousand dollar plus custom rifles (very close).

However the MAIN thing should be to draw more hunters into shooting matches or competing together. If you want to fill up a line with shooters, the common .50cal rifle hunter is the shooter/s that's not being drawn in. There are millions of them out there.

If it turns into a Knight rifle or .45cal. match, then someone's missing the point. One certainly can't blame Knight, nor can one blame any of the other manufacturers. The manufacturers are in business to sell hunters what they want, at a price that the highest percentage can afford to purchase. That highest percentage are the common hunter.

Regardless of rifle type, shoot to qualify. Sandbaggers will be identified immediately and can be dealt with as any director/s determine. Three classifications: Master, Expert, Sharpshooter. The M5 is an outstanding idea for the customs (or any others who would want to shoot that class).

 

[bestill]

I think the intent to attract new members and new shooters to the inline is awesome but fact is very very few hunters will get into competitive shooting with basic muzzleloader. They just wont do it.
Same as competitive rifle matches hunters just aren't into it with there factory rifles.
This is a national championship for muzzleloaders and a competitive shoot.
Not many hunters with a cheap basic rifle are going to travel and spend much money to shoot .
True target shoots invest in a rifle that is competitive and will travel to test there abilities and equipment.
I believe that friendship inline matches are top end and several of the best around are dedicated to premium accuracy.
Try shooting a imline at 100,200,300,400,500 yards with no practice or help from spotter and put 5 on each target and only drop 12 points over a 5-6 hr period as conditions change.
It happened at friendship this week. I say thats incredible.
Great shooting !!!

 

[ENCORE50A]

I think the intent to attract new members and new shooters to the inline is awesome but fact is very very few hunters will get into competitive shooting with basic muzzleloader. They just wont do it.
Same as competitive rifle matches hunters just aren't into it with there factory rifles.
This is a national championship for muzzleloaders and a competitive shoot.
Not many hunters with a cheap basic rifle are going to travel and spend much money to shoot .
True target shoots invest in a rifle that is competitive and will travel to test there abilities and equipment.
I believe that friendship inline matches are top end and several of the best around are dedicated to premium accuracy.
Try shooting a imline at 100,200,300,400,500 yards with no practice or help from spotter and put 5 on each target and only drop 12 points over a 5-6 hr period as conditions change.
It happened at friendship this week. I say thats incredible.
Great shooting !!!

There's no argument concerning the M5 class, or the Nationals. Clearly the best and most seasoned shooters with the better/best equipment shoot the M5.

However the IH (Inline Hunter) is different, or should be.
Unless I've missed something completely, the IH shoot, especially the early match, is the classification designed for new shooters, or shooters with hunting rifles (Inline Hunter)? The many notes I've taken from phone conversations with Bob, appear to indicate so.
IIRC it was already mentioned that some new shooters came in past years to shoot, and once they found out what it was all about, they may have upgraded their equipment, practiced more and returned to try and be more competitive? I would suggest that its the new shooters who have never been to an organized shoot, would first show up with hunting rifles. Then, after "getting the bug" for some, it might bring them back again, as indicated.
However, its quite evident that the numbers of shooters willing to shoot just the IH match in the spring, has dropped by 1/3 over the past 3 years.
Yes it can get expensive, which will deter some new shooters. I know my past trips consisted of 16hrs of driving, $300+ in a motel, plus food and entry fees, to shoot 25-30 rounds or so. I'm also fortunate to some degree, as I have a range that has targets to 500yds, actually 600yds, which most shooters struggle to find a range allowing 300yds.

Separating manufactured from limited production or custom seems to be a constant issue and/or point of contention. This issue has a direct affect on rather new shooters will even attempt to start.

 

[bestill]

There is a hunter manufacturers class now and custom m5 class.
My opinion bunters wont participate no matter what rules are implemented.

 

[1874sharpsshooter]

There is a hunter manufacturers class now and custom m5 class.
My opinion bunters wont participate no matter what rules are implemented.

Most hunters , like myself , know we aren't good enough to have a chance . I would hate to drive 1000 miles just to finish in last place so I have fun just shooting in my pasture to see if I can get any better .

 

[toytruck]

I would like to attend just to watch the matches, maybe learn something in the process. I do enjoy shooting target to get ready for the fall seasons.
I'm interested in shooting an killing deer with my rifles, squirrels/turkey with the shotgun. My guns put meat on the table and that's what matters to me!

 

[ENCORE50A]

There is a hunter manufacturers class now and custom m5 class.
My opinion bunters wont participate no matter what rules are implemented.

Glad we have good opinions going........ I have somewhat a different opinion about the hunters.

Stop and think about this, we were all hunters who heard about organized inline muzzleloader shooting, became interested and started. I myself was/am a hunter, I believe you still hunt and many of the other shooters also hunt. We were hunters before we became interested in organized inline muzzleloader shooting.

Until I walked into UF to purchase a rifle and talked with Ken Johnston, I'd never heard of a place called Friendship or the NMLRA, and I've been shooting muzzleloaders for a long time. There are still 10's of thousands of muzzleloader hunters that have no clue about Friendship or the NMLRA. A HUGE untapped resource.
Those out there that might be interested in organized inline shooting, will most have hunting rifles. They will never attend start if not helped along. Encouragement to attend, information provided about the match and how they're operated, then help with the intimidation factors. Its not easy for a first time attendee.

The addition of the M5 class was an outstanding addition. However IMO the IH class should have been left as was. The May match is down to 22 shooters, 8 of which now shoot custom. Where are the new shooters coming from?

 

[bestill]

I am a hunter 1 st but also love competitive shooting.
You and i are the minority which spend time with or long range muzzleloaders.
Sad reality no matter how you do hunter match the truly dedicated shooters of custom guns will be at friendship and then will shoot hunter class since they are already there. And will dominate class regardless of rules .

Thd future in my opinion is classifications of shoots per performance

 

[ENCORE50A]

I am a hunter 1 st but also love competitive shooting.
You and i are the minority which spend time with or long range muzzleloaders.
Sad reality no matter how you do hunter match the truly dedicated shooters of custom guns will be at friendship and then will shoot hunter class since they are already there. And will dominate class regardless of rules .

Thd future in my opinion is classifications of shoots per performance

BINGO! I couldn't agree more with your last sentence!

That's why in one of the earlier posts I mentioned qualifying for class. IMO I feel that last years rules were heading in the absolute right direction for the IH class. The addition of the M5 just put the icing on the cake. It'll take some time to get it all figured out, where it's approved by the majority of hunters and competitors alike.

In sincerity, I felt an still feel that the three classifications, based on previous performance, was a great change from the previous year. New shooters or those with lessor shooting abilities or quality rifles, started in the Marksman class and worked (shot) their way up. If one had the experience and abilities and wanted, they could shoot in the Expert or Master classifications. Their scores determined their classification.

 

[long shot]

that is why you need to come to Nationals. I think you would have a lot to contribute . They really need your input.