Relative power of traditional muzzleloaders for big game hunting

[Rlsmith]

”You're uninformed. Cape Buffalo and Elephant have been taken with a bow.
I was talking about animals here in USA and was referring to people talking about round ball but excuse the hell out of me for even saying anything

 

[Muley Hunter]

Just making a point that bear and elk are not hard to kill with a bow if it can kill the big 5 in Africa.

I thought you'd see my point. A PRB has limits. A bow doesn't seem to have the same limits.

 

[exMember]

If you can shoot an elk with a bow, thats short range and even a .50cal ball will do the job on bear and elk. African game, You are using something around a 400 to 600 grain cutting edge, not our little light weight 100-125gr broadheads.

 

[Sparkitoff1]

We're getting way off topic here....but....one big reason African large game is not hunted with PRB (especially in calibers starting with a 5 or 6) is that the Countries have a minimum Joules rating for "dangerous game" and for "large game". This varies and most countries have the regulations but not all. A PRB will typically not make the ME (Joules) requirement for Cape Buffalo, Elephant, Hippo, etc.

 

[Muley Hunter]

Yet, you can use a bow. They must think a bow is more effective than a PRB. Sort of the point I was making.

Listen, nobody loves hunting with a PRB more than me. However, I know it's limits.

 

[Muley Hunter]

If you can shoot an elk with a bow, thats short range and even a .50cal ball will do the job on bear and elk. African game, You are using something around a 400 to 600 grain cutting edge, not our little light weight 100-125gr broadheads.

 You're saying they used a 600gr broadhead or total weight of arrow with broadhead?

 

[Rlsmith]

If you can shoot an elk with a bow, thats short range and even a .50cal ball will do the job on bear and elk. African game, You are using something around a 400 to 600 grain cutting edge, not our little light weight 100-125gr broadheads.

Thank you see the point I was trying to make

 

[Buck Conner1]

I have mentioned - an African friend that was a guide, tracker and lead in Africa for over 60 years before moving to the United States. Now called by Hollywood when a movie is underway for his opinion on what is being used for hunting takes.

This gentleman has told us at a hunting meeting at Cabela's about some of the early weapons used which included both hand held bows (traditional, crossbows and spears) along with muzzleloaders of large calibers (some flint but percussion was preferred). From pictures he shared these weapons were all very crude and showed lots of hard use, rifles and shotguns were patched together on the forearms and wrists. Jon said he never owned a cartridge gun in his 60 year career. He felt that many of his clients liked seeing John and his fellow trackers with weapons like Hemingway wrote about. He's fun to listen to with his British tone and stiff posture, white hair and so black he looks dark blue. 

I saw the "Countries have a minimum Joules rating for "dangerous game" and for "large game". Called John and asked about this remark, his reply was "another known-it-all writer that knows enough to get himself killed".  

He does know what your talking about and thought this was another government tried and unproven theory with "a projectile's muzzle energy", these ideas alway look good on paper, but ....


Change the subject this is going no where.  :Beating Muley:

​

 

[Muley Hunter]

If you can shoot an elk with a bow, thats short range and even a .50cal ball will do the job on bear and elk. African game, You are using something around a 400 to 600 grain cutting edge, not our little light weight 100-125gr broadheads.

Thank you see the point I was trying to make

No, he made no point.

 

[Sparkitoff1]

I'd like to hook up with John.  I am a retired PH and owned an international outfitting company for 25 years, retiring and selling the company in 2014. We were based in South Africa, Lepahalale, Illisris. We hunted some in Botswana and pre-Tanzania. Been all over the Continent. Sent clients to 22 different US States for various hunting and fishing adventures, and 3 other Continents. Things change everywhere, not always for the better and mostly due to Governments that are trying to protect us.

 

[PaperPunch]

Maybe there are differences today with the hunters' mindset. Obviously the PRB is the same, the powder is the same, the rifle is the same, the game is the same.
The hunter of today hunts for SOME of the same reasons, but many of todays hunters will shoot at game from distances that are believed to be "close enough" and make decisions about what is an ethical shot based on preconceived notions he or she either has personal knowledge of, or has read about, which are "accepted" as sufficient for taking said game. In other words, information passed on by internet forums, magazines, books, friends, stories told around the lodge or camp table, etc. are heard by nearly everyone, and we form our own personal ideas of what makes an ethical/ lethal shot. Add actual experience from many hunts mixed in as the hunter relives the shot and passes on the details to those riveted to every word, and you can see how so many opinions prevail. This and advertising leads to much confusion as we start to form our own opinions of what makes a lethal kill, or what is actually "necessary" for ethical hunting. Bow, spear, rifle, pistol, air gun whatever is to your liking. If you really think about it, man has been feeding the family for hundreds of years with powder and ball. Why would you feel suddenly that the PRB would be insufficient?
I think we all need to assure we're CLOSE enough for that ethical and lethal shot......period!
I know.....if I try to get closer I might not get the shot.
Like I said, many are afraid of failure, afraid we won't get that opportunity again, I won't have time for another hunt, this is the only chance I have.....etc.
Our mental state is different today, sharing pictures of our success puts just as much pressure on us today as hunger did for those long ago. The difference is we can go home and have a warm dinner, and call our buddies and tell stories about what the day brought upon us. We sometimes don't give the game the respect they deserve when we take that long shot, or rush to get the shot off as they pass through that sight picture or shoot before it goes out of sight. Hey we can't have everything we want right? The PRB is as good a tool as there ever has been. Why is it that last years' bow or caliber is history when the new catalog comes out? Why do we see "used" equipment as inferior when it's someone else's on the yard sale table? Funny how we are eh? LOL
We see further shots taken and we fall pray to their advertising, but do we consider our quarry?
Hey, this hunting season how 'bout we all take whatever we've got and be satisfied that what we bought last year is as good today as we new it would be last season when we bought it, and hone our skills better, use our wind and intellect to get CLOSER, and make that lethal shot count this season!!
Good luck to you all!!

 

[Rlsmith]

Maybe there are differences today with the hunters' mindset. Obviously the PRB is the same, the powder is the same, the rifle is the same, the game is the same.
The hunter of today hunts for SOME of the same reasons, but many of todays hunters will shoot at game from distances that are believed to be "close enough" and make decisions about what is an ethical shot based on preconceived notions he or she either has personal knowledge of, or has read about, which are "accepted" as sufficient for taking said game. In other words, information passed on by internet forums, magazines, books, friends, stories told around the lodge or camp table, etc. are heard by nearly everyone, and we form our own personal ideas of what makes an ethical/ lethal shot. Add actual experience from many hunts mixed in as the hunter relives the shot and passes on the details to those riveted to every word, and you can see how so many opinions prevail. This and advertising leads to much confusion as we start to form our own opinions of what makes a lethal kill, or what is actually "necessary" for ethical hunting. Bow, spear, rifle, pistol, air gun whatever is to your liking. If you really think about it, man has been feeding the family for hundreds of years with powder and ball. Why would you feel suddenly that the PRB would be insufficient?
I think we all need to assure we're CLOSE enough for that ethical and lethal shot......period!
I know.....if I try to get closer I might not get the shot.
Like I said, many are afraid of failure, afraid we won't get that opportunity again, I won't have time for another hunt, this is the only chance I have.....etc.
Our mental state is different today, sharing pictures of our success puts just as much pressure on us today as hunger did for those long ago. The difference is we can go home and have a warm dinner, and call our buddies and tell stories about what the day brought upon us. We sometimes don't give the game the respect they deserve when we take that long shot, or rush to get the shot off as they pass through that sight picture or shoot before it goes out of sight. Hey we can't have everything we want right? The PRB is as good a tool as there ever has been. Why is it that last years' bow or caliber is history when the new catalog comes out? Why do we see "used" equipment as inferior when it's someone else's on the yard sale table? Funny how we are eh? LOL
We see further shots taken and we fall pray to their advertising, but do we consider our quarry?
Hey, this hunting season how 'bout we all take whatever we've got and be satisfied that what we bought last year is as good today as we new it would be last season when we bought it, and hone our skills better, use our wind and intellect to get CLOSER, and make that lethal shot count this season!!
Good luck to you all!!

This was well said why can we not just respect what someone want to use instead of trying to make them look like they are stupid that is why I just quit asking questions or trying to be part of some conversations because some just think there way is the only way.

 

[Muley Hunter]

Just because you disagree doesn't make you right. All i've hunted with is a .54 PRB since 1980. I love them. I just happen to draw the line on using one for a grizzly. Show me one being killed with one and i'll apologize. A simple challenge that nobody has taken.

  I'd try it with a .62, a harder cast ball, and huge powder load. A .54 soft lead ball? Not me. Grizzly's get real grumpy when shot.

 

[Rlsmith]

If you are referring to as I recall you are the one who likes to call people a liar because YOU SAY IT CAN'T BE DONE. After this comment I won't be responding anymore folks like you who are you that are that closed minded isn't worth my time. Good day.

 

[Buck Conner1]

I'd try it with a .62, a harder cast ball, and huge powder load. A .54 soft lead ball? Not me. Grizzly's get real grumpy when shot.

My friend and his son that have killed two grizzlies with muzzleloaders (both used the same gun on different days) a GRRW Hawken in .58 caliber and casted round balls of close to the hardness of wheel weight. The balls recovered had egg shaped but didn't break apart from the heavy loads. 

I'll ask if he has a picture or will take a picture of those balls.

 

[Muley Hunter]

I never called anybody a liar and I never said it can't be done. I said and i'll say it again. I'd like to see a video to believe it and then i'll admit i'm wrong.

Kind of thin skinned aren't you?