On another thread in the firearms section I mentioned the trouble I had reloading for a Remington Model 4 chambered in 30-06. The small base dies I had weren't working very well so today I found a new set of RCBS small base dies. I set it up and resized one piece of brass. The original problem I had was I couldn't get the brass resized to factory size and the rifle just wouldn't cycle right. Came within 3/1000 and I think it was Rifleman who said that would make a difference. Today after risize one piece I got it down to 5/10000th. Is this going to be OK. I also plan to trim the bass down to factory length which is less than recommended length in my manual. OAL will also be same as factory, again less than manual. What do you think.
Reloading question
- Thread starter RAF
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If you have a tight chamber that is a good thing as tight chambers shoot much better.
Are you sure you problem is having to use small base dies or could it be that you not be setting the shoulder back far enough?? Have you smoked a fired case (shoulder area) shot in your chamber and tested it against the shoulder of your dies?
In some cases the small base dies are not the cause but the die needs to be trimmed a few thousands off the bottom of the base to set the shoulder back enough to properly feed a round.
Just a thought.
Greg
If you have a tight chamber that is a good thing as tight chambers shoot much better.
Are you sure you problem is having to use small base dies or could it be that you not be setting the shoulder back far enough?? Have you smoked a fired case (shoulder area) shot in your chamber and tested it against the shoulder of your dies?
In some cases the small base dies are not the cause but the die needs to be trimmed a few thousands off the bottom of the base to set the shoulder back enough to properly feed a round.
Just a thought.
Greg
You are on the right track RAF. Load up 5 as you describe and let me know if they work, I think they will, but I think I mentioned you needed to get the case dimensions down to same size as factory ammo. Bottom line, if the gun works with factory stuff and you match the size, both in headspace and OAL and have a sufficient load to cycle the action, they will work just fine.
Rifleman said:
I'd like to make them and try them but with the weather, it might be a while. We have a winter storm watch. Forecasting up to 8 inch of snow, lots of wind and near blizzard condition and then the bottom falls out of the thermometer to -30 C or -22 F
. Range time is out of the question. What used to happen with the original loads I'd make is one or two would cycle and then nothing in the chamber. My gun smith told me that the Model 4 is more fussy than a lot of other auto loaders and what you said makes sense and I'll try it. Just not sure when.Our local gun shop re-opened its door after moving into a new building. Dropped in to have a look around and it's impressive. I picked up some powder(4895) and a box of Nosler accu bonds. What do you think? I wanted something with a balistic tip as opposed to lead tip for smoother feeding.
Frankly RAF I don't think it will make a bit of difference. The feeding portion of the cycle is fairly vigourous and when that bolt slams home, that gun will feed if the cartridge is the right size. I am talking about your gun in particular, not every semi-auto.
RAF your thinking is how they market polymer tipped bullets :wink: ! Though in reality a slightly deformed lead tip has never showed me accuracy loss that is measurable to the tip alone and certainly has nothing to due with cycling. Ie: If I ramp Nosler Parts out of the mag hard and fast the nose is deformed, as is it via recoil in the mag though they shoot identical to hand placing them in the chamber :shock: !
BTW I use polymer tipped bullets not do to the deform tip benefit they give but more reliable expansion at lower velocity/longer range and as general rule a higher BC(for the longer shots as well).
As far as the AB its proved itself in my 7mm rem mag taking elk, moose and deer with 160gr pill. They have shown accuracy potential in every rifle I have loaded them for. Like them but I have gone back to the NBT for deer sized and TSX for elk/moose. The AB is not required for deer IMO and the TSX offers insurance of tough angled shots on larger game. If this rifle shot Partitions I'd just load up 150's and be done with it but such is life :twisted:
BTW I use polymer tipped bullets not do to the deform tip benefit they give but more reliable expansion at lower velocity/longer range and as general rule a higher BC(for the longer shots as well).
As far as the AB its proved itself in my 7mm rem mag taking elk, moose and deer with 160gr pill. They have shown accuracy potential in every rifle I have loaded them for. Like them but I have gone back to the NBT for deer sized and TSX for elk/moose. The AB is not required for deer IMO and the TSX offers insurance of tough angled shots on larger game. If this rifle shot Partitions I'd just load up 150's and be done with it but such is life :twisted:
Today I decided to make some bullets. I started by measuring all my factory loads to get an average to the length of brass and OAL finished.
Brass was resized with small base dies, and trimmed to the average of the factory rounds. Brass was primed and loaded with powder charge and bullets seated to the average OAL of factory. Since these are going through an auto loader they needed to be crimped. I've never liked using the crimping feature of the seating dies. If every piece isn't exactly the same length, you end up damaging the shoulders of your bullets. I have a crimping die so that was taken care. Only made 15 bullets right now and would like to test them but access to the range is probably out since the bizzard we had last week. Probably would need snow shoes to get in :wink: Might just go out in the country and fire them. They tell me quick if they're going to work.
Brass was resized with small base dies, and trimmed to the average of the factory rounds. Brass was primed and loaded with powder charge and bullets seated to the average OAL of factory. Since these are going through an auto loader they needed to be crimped. I've never liked using the crimping feature of the seating dies. If every piece isn't exactly the same length, you end up damaging the shoulders of your bullets. I have a crimping die so that was taken care. Only made 15 bullets right now and would like to test them but access to the range is probably out since the bizzard we had last week. Probably would need snow shoes to get in :wink: Might just go out in the country and fire them. They tell me quick if they're going to work.
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RAF said:
I'd try chambering the sized and ready to prime brass. It should almost fall out of the chamber when the muzzle is pointed up.
The only crimping die I'll use is the Lee collet style. It "squeezes" the brass around the bullet and doesn't create a bulge.
I've loaded and shot several thousand rounds in an AR and have never crimped and never had a problem with bullet movement.
YMMV
Today I was at the range and test fired the rounds I made a ways back in the winter. For the most part they functions good. Had a couple that didn't cycles right but they were the last few. I attribute that too the rifle getting pretty warm 'cause didn't wait much. Only cooling time was when re-filling the mag.
What was really interesting was the velocities I got. I loaded with 150 grain accu bond. Factory 150 ammo has an advertised muzzle velocity of 2910. I was consistently get over 3000 FPS. They all grouped real nice too. Wasn't even trying for groups. Whole purspose was to see if they cycle.
What was really interesting was the velocities I got. I loaded with 150 grain accu bond. Factory 150 ammo has an advertised muzzle velocity of 2910. I was consistently get over 3000 FPS. They all grouped real nice too. Wasn't even trying for groups. Whole purspose was to see if they cycle.
A few days after I was at the range, I happened to be in my gunsmiths place and told him about this. He said my loads were too hot. The brass showed no signs of excess pressure but he figured that if I continued to shoot these I would damage the rifle. Suggested I drop the load back a half a grain. I did that and went back to the range last week.
Well, I lost 200 FPS. I couldn't believe a 1/2 grain would do that. I checked my notes (should have done that before I loaded) and sure enough, I dropped the load 1 1/2 grain. That explains the loss of velocity and the drop of poi. Groups were all that great either. And I have 30 left.
Today I decided the loads are probably a little light. I wanted to reclaim the powder and save the bullets, so out came my RCBS bullet puller. The bullets were crimped so it took several extra wacks to get the bullets out. I had to replace the chuck as it wore out. Anyway, got the bullets out with no damage. I resized the necks after the initial crimping and reloaded with the proper amount of powder, reseated the bullets and crimped again. Now will have to head back to the range and try them. Hope to get close to factory velocity and decent groups.
Frankly, I don't know why I'm doing this. I'm not sure if I'll take this rifle hunting. I have a new 300 WSM to use plus the savage. I guess someone might want to use it. A friends X likes to hunt and doesn't own a center fire yet and she's used it before and taken deer. We'll see. There is a certain amount of satisfaction in making bullets that work.
Well, I lost 200 FPS. I couldn't believe a 1/2 grain would do that. I checked my notes (should have done that before I loaded) and sure enough, I dropped the load 1 1/2 grain. That explains the loss of velocity and the drop of poi. Groups were all that great either. And I have 30 left.
Today I decided the loads are probably a little light. I wanted to reclaim the powder and save the bullets, so out came my RCBS bullet puller. The bullets were crimped so it took several extra wacks to get the bullets out. I had to replace the chuck as it wore out. Anyway, got the bullets out with no damage. I resized the necks after the initial crimping and reloaded with the proper amount of powder, reseated the bullets and crimped again. Now will have to head back to the range and try them. Hope to get close to factory velocity and decent groups.
Frankly, I don't know why I'm doing this. I'm not sure if I'll take this rifle hunting. I have a new 300 WSM to use plus the savage. I guess someone might want to use it. A friends X likes to hunt and doesn't own a center fire yet and she's used it before and taken deer. We'll see. There is a certain amount of satisfaction in making bullets that work.
"I happened to be in my gunsmiths place and told him about this. He said my loads were too hot."
I think your gunsmith might know more about fixing guns then he does about internal ballistics.
Raf,If the rifle works with factory ammo then there is no reason whatsoever you can't get it to work with handloads. Just make your ammo match factory specs both in dimension and pressure.
Get some factory ammo and shoot 10 to see if it functions and is accurate and shoot it over a chrony if it is then proceed. Also record the velocity. Measure 5, take the measurements just like the pics of cases in the load books that show dimensions. Then average your results. Then prepare your cases within these specs. Next get the same bullet used in the factory load and find a load in the manual that runs the bullet at the same speed as what you got with your chrono results. Keep in mind that your chrono results will probably be a little lower then the advertised velocity in an autoloader and that your barrel is probably shorter then the test rifle.
Also in the reloading manual it should list the test gun and you will have to take that in consideration as well. You may want to choose the charge the runs 100 FPS second faster in the manual then your chrony results. Load and shoot 1 at a time until you match the avg you got with factory ammo. Now there is one more fly in the ointment. Your gun being a gas operated rifle is dependent on port pressure and the pressure curve to operate. Their is no way to know if you match that or not without pressure trace equipment, however if you do all the things I wrote above, you are likely going to be within the port pressure requirement needed to operate your rifle. Basically what you need is a pressure that is high enough to operate the gun and that pressure curve must be in the gun LONG enough to operate the rifle. Typically you will have a longer curve with a slower powder. So if your first attempt matchs the parameters I outlined above it should work, but if it does not, repeat the experiment but switch to a slower powder. Most likely you will find the solution within the first two attempts.
I think your gunsmith might know more about fixing guns then he does about internal ballistics.
Raf,If the rifle works with factory ammo then there is no reason whatsoever you can't get it to work with handloads. Just make your ammo match factory specs both in dimension and pressure.
Get some factory ammo and shoot 10 to see if it functions and is accurate and shoot it over a chrony if it is then proceed. Also record the velocity. Measure 5, take the measurements just like the pics of cases in the load books that show dimensions. Then average your results. Then prepare your cases within these specs. Next get the same bullet used in the factory load and find a load in the manual that runs the bullet at the same speed as what you got with your chrono results. Keep in mind that your chrono results will probably be a little lower then the advertised velocity in an autoloader and that your barrel is probably shorter then the test rifle.
Also in the reloading manual it should list the test gun and you will have to take that in consideration as well. You may want to choose the charge the runs 100 FPS second faster in the manual then your chrony results. Load and shoot 1 at a time until you match the avg you got with factory ammo. Now there is one more fly in the ointment. Your gun being a gas operated rifle is dependent on port pressure and the pressure curve to operate. Their is no way to know if you match that or not without pressure trace equipment, however if you do all the things I wrote above, you are likely going to be within the port pressure requirement needed to operate your rifle. Basically what you need is a pressure that is high enough to operate the gun and that pressure curve must be in the gun LONG enough to operate the rifle. Typically you will have a longer curve with a slower powder. So if your first attempt matchs the parameters I outlined above it should work, but if it does not, repeat the experiment but switch to a slower powder. Most likely you will find the solution within the first two attempts.
