Renegade adventures

[WV Hunter]

Ok, so I have an older Renegade that I picked up quite some time ago. Its a .54 percussion with set triggers in excellent condition. It appears to be an older model (pre warning label) but I have no idea how old. It has a tc tang peep, and green fiber optic front sight (the guy before put it on).

Last weekend I ventured out with it to test it out... been in my safe too long. Over the years I've had several traditional ML's, but always shot full bore or even saboted loads, never PRB.
My intent with this was to use PRB. My cousin gave me some balls (.530 he said - didn't measure them), and my buddy gave me some patches. I am not sure of the patch size... he thought they were .015 - he has a .50 Hawken. I lubed them up and headed out.

I had no idea if it was on target or not. I started by loading 100gr Pyrodex RS, w RWS 1075 caps... at 25yds, and shot 2x to get it on target, it was pretty close. Then I backed up to 50yds, and started shooting and tweaking the peep. I only had 12 patches, so I was limited. I was taking my time and swabbing with a spit patch between shots. I got it dialed in to where it was shooting in the 3" bull consistently, and a few of the shots were pretty close. I've never shot a peep before, so it was taking some getting used to, and I know I have some more work to do. And that trigger... oh my!! Its MUCH lighter than anything I've ever shot. I got better with it as I went, but the first 3-4 shots it startled me, even smashed myself in the nose with my thumb twice. LOL
Also, I was holding dead on because my front sight fit perfectly in the target box at 50yds. I don't know if I should switch to a 6 o'clock hold next time. I've never shot open sights much, and never with that type hold. Will have to train my mind I guess if I decide to. Much farther and I won't be able to see the target box if I don't. Most shots where I hunt are under 75yds, so I'm not super concerned either way. I plan to shoot it out to 100 on targets next time.

So, not being a PRB shooter ever... I have some questions. I am green really, but learning.

First, how do you guys determine what is a good fitting load in these rifles? I could start the ball with my thumb, and it slid down with relatively light pressure. About halfway through, I dialed back down to 90gr, and the group tightened up a good bit. But I really don't have an accurate feel for how it shoots yet, didn't really shoot for groups. Was just shooting it to shoot it and get in on paper and get the feel for it. The last 2 shots I felt like I had a very slight delay on ignition, but only from what I thought I heard. It may not have. It was still very accurate. I think it was starting to crud up a smidge in the nipple.

Should I be swabbing between shots? Would alcohol or windex be better? It didn't seem to have a ton of fouling it seemed, seemed far less than my inlines. I'm guessing because of the patch lube?

So I need to get some patches and round balls. I see the daisy pillow tick patches on October country... was thinking I could get .015 and .018 and see what the gun likes. Do you guys like those? Should I get .50-.59 or .40-49? I'm thinking the latter... smaller would give less excess, correct? I am using Frontier patch lube/rust preventative. One thing I noticed... (again, I'm green) I didn't do a good job lubing the patches I think. Some of them burnt up, others looked pretty good. From what I've read, if its lubed right with a reasonable load...they shouldn't burn up. I will do a better job lubing next time and more consistently on the whole patch.

I have heard that Hornady round balls are really good for hunting. True? I want something that is soft enough and will expand well and not just punch a hole through. Nobody local carries balls, so I have to order. Who is best? Dang things are expensive to ship.... should I get both sizes? .530 and .535? Or just stick with what I shot this weekend since they did pretty well?

I will say, it was fun! I gotta figure that trigger out... and get more acquainted with the peep sight and shooting through it. I'll be shooting it again in 2 weeks, so I have some time to order some supplies.

Any and all suggestions would be appreciated! Thanks in advance!

 

[deermanok]

It sounds like you have a good patch & ball combination. I'd vote to experiment with different powder charges till you find the most accurate and consistent load. Finding that sweet spot is part of the journey.

 

[HC]

I always purchased pillow ticking at the fabric store for patches. Wash it in the clothes washer, then hang it up to air dry, then rip into 1 1/2 “ strips. I always cut at the muzzle after using a short starter. A patch ought to be tight enough to imprint the texture of the fabric into the circumference of the ball. A tight fitting ball set firmly on the powder should eliminate any hang fires or almost hang fires. Good luck.

 

[dbowling]

6 oclock hold is usually better because you can still see your bull and know if your centered, same when hunting. At least thats the way I was taught to shoot open sights, worked good for squirrel hunting.

 

[Renegadehunter]

I also think it sounds like you have a good patch & ball combo if you were keeping them in a 3" bull at 50 yards.
To me the perfect combo would start easy, require no swabbing, and put them all in one hole.
Of course we normally don't get that. Keep shooting the rifle and experiment to find out if it needs to be swabbed or not.
I'm thinking like Deermanok, your patch, ball, and lube seem good and you probably just need to play around with the powder charge.
100 grains is a fairly hot RB load. My .54 Renegade prefers 80 grains of 2f for a RB load (it also likes the exact same charge of 3f). Mine HAS to be swabbed or accuracy goes to hell. I can only get away with 2 shots before having to swab, and I'm using a much tighter combo...no way you could thumb start it.
I would recommend starting with a 75 grain charge, shoot a group, go up 5 grains to 80, shoot another group, etc., etc. until you find its favorite charge.
As far as lubing the patches most will tell you to put enough lube on the patch to just fill the weave. Don't over do it, it doesn't take much. Do make sure the lube is rubbed out to the edges of the patch. I've heard nothing but good about Jon's patch lube that you are using. It sounds like you have a shooter, my first outing with my Renegade didn't involve any semblance of something called accuracy.

 

[Matthew323]

I've always had an analytical mind that wants to figure EVERYTHING out.

So, how I got my first 3 long rifles to shoot as well as they did I'll never know!!!

Especially, that first one. It had a 40" long, Douglas barrel in .45 caliber.

There was no internet, no forums to go to where one could ask knowledgeable people questions.

All I had to teach me was the Lyman Black Powder Handbook. No locals. NO ONE IN MY FAMILY THAT WAS SUPPORTIVE.

I had a brass 0-120 grain powder measure.

I made Lee-style scoops from discarded cartridge cases that I picked up at the range, and trimmed to length. I had them in 5-grain increments from 35-100 grains.

I wrapped coat hanger wire around the ejector groove, and silver soldered it in place with my father's oxy-acetylene torch. With a loop bent on the opposite end for the thumb and forefinger to pinch.

I poured the duPont fffg black powder into a plastic jar with a screw top lid, and just started shooting using the scoops to load the rifle. I think I started with 50 grains.

Patching was a worn out pair of blue jeans.

Balls cast from graphite-coated buckshot that I had purchased in a 25 pound bag to shoot in a replica Colt 1860 Army percussion revolver. Melted down in a cheap aluminum pot over the kitchen stove with an in-the-wall exhaust fan running. Cast in an iron DGW 0.445" scissors mold. Sprues cut off with a pair of dikes from the tool box.

Made a short starter from a piece of knot-free, 2"×4" pine that was sized to fit my palm. And some maple dowelling purchased from the local hardware store. Just took a wood rasp and really rounded over the edges of the 2"×4".

With a well-honed, carbon steel, 6" butcher knife that I had bought at an auction for a patch knife; and spit for a lubricant I was off shooting.

I was 17. I wasn't trying to emulate my forefathers. I JUST WANTED STUFF THAT WOULD LET ME SHOOT!!!

And, without knowing any better I was replicating what experienced shooters now tell new shooters to do to minimize problems, and maximize accuracy.

Which is to say, a muzzle crown that is radiused, a ball that is 0.005" under bore size, a tight fitting patch that completely seals the grooves (regardless of their shape, or depth), and lubricant aporopriate to the situation (animal fat for hunting, and spit, Windex, etc. for bench shooting)

When I read threads like this one I realize how blessed I was in my ignorance. GOD surely was looking out for me, because without a mentor I could have gotten myself into all kinds of trouble, that somehow I avoided.

For the OP, just keep at it, and eventually you will find that combo of powder brand, powder charge, patch material, patch thickness, lubricant, and ball diameter that gives you the accuracy, and ease of loading that you desire.

As several others have mentioned, don't get caught up in heavy powder charges as related to the round ball.

100 grain, and heavier, powder charges seldom show good accuracy in barrels that have rates of twist that are faster than 1-60".

When shooters try to compare the terminal ballistics of a patched ball to a bullet of any shape they have to keep in mind one VERY IMPORTANT FACT.

And, that fact is that ALL ballistic tables are designed around bullets. Mostly, projectiles with points.

A ball shape simply does not fit into the equations and algorithms that are used in ballistic calculators. PERIOD!!

When you plug a ball into any of these calculators the data that comes out looks TERRIBLE.

If you compare the paper data with all of the real world experience here in the United States, a person just shakes their head and can't figure it out.

The truth is that a patched ball of .45 caliber, is more than sufficient for whitetail deer in the hands of an ethical hunter.

It is when people try to make a patched ball rifle perform like a grease groove, paper patched, or saboted/jacketed bullet rifle that they get into trouble.

Bruce

 

[WV Hunter]

Thanks for the feedback folks!

So I never thought that I could possibly have a gun shooting Pyrodex (or BP) that wouldn't require swabbing between shots, or very little. I will say, when I did swab I didn't notice much fouling at all, even with 100gr. Nothing like in my knight plungers. If I don't swab them between shots, its awful tight getting a 2nd load down. If I do swab, should I just use a dry patch? Or one with alcohol or windex?

I ordered some daisy pillow tick patches in .015 and .018, and some more .530 round balls. Hoping to get back out there next weekend if the weather holds.

I think I'll switch to a 6:00 hold and shoot for groups at 50 and see how it goes. I also plan to shoot at 100 as well.
Any addl tips or pointers would be appreciated. I've been doing some more research, watched a bunch of IdahoLewis' video's... good stuff!

Oh, and my ramrod is about 1/4" too long - no clue why, maybe its from a different rifle. Anyone know where I can get one the right size for my rifle? Its not a huge issue, just sorta bugs me. The rod is an OEM rod, hickory with blued ends. I can't seem to find anything hickory with blued ends. Everything seems to be brass. It looks like I need 26 5/8".

If I knew how to take mine apart and shorten it (without butchering it up) I would just do that.

 

[Smyrnagc]

Oh, and my ramrod is about 1/4" too long - no clue why, maybe its from a different rifle. Anyone know where I can get one the right size for my rifle? Its not a huge issue, just sorta bugs me. The rod is an OEM rod, hickory with blued ends. I can't seem to find anything hickory with blued ends. Everything seems to be brass. It looks like I need 26 5/8".

If I knew how to take mine apart and shorten it (without butchering it up) I would just do that.

I have the same issue with my ram rod so if anyone has disassembled theirs please let us know the best way to do it.

 

[HC]

Just drill the hole in the stock a little deeper. My ramrod is 26 5/8 also and it is a little shy of the end of the barrel. Hope this helps.

 

[WV Hunter]

Just drill the hole in the stock a little deeper. My ramrod is 26 5/8 also and it is a little shy of the end of the barrel. Hope this helps.

Man, what a simple but great suggestion, I will definitely look at that! Mine is actually 26 7/8"... but I'm betting I can fix that now!

 

[Semisane]

And, that fact is that ALL ballistic tables are designed around bullets. Mostly, projectiles with points.

Not so. This one works pretty well.
http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/rbballistics/rbballistics.html

 

[michiganmuzzy]

Man, what a simple but great suggestion, I will definitely look at that! Mine is actually 26 7/8"... but I'm betting I can fix that now!

I took my thimbles and rib off and use a folding rod or a rangerod

 

[WV Hunter]

Not so. This one works pretty well.
http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/rbballistics/rbballistics.html

Thanks Semi!

 

[Smyrnagc]

Just drill the hole in the stock a little deeper. My ramrod is 26 5/8 also and it is a little shy of the end of the barrel. Hope this helps.

Sweet! That's why I asked before I started trying to disassemble the ram rod. Thanks Herschel!

 

[Smyrnagc]

Well...Took the Renegade apart this evening and I would need a drill bit a little longer than 14" to drill it.

So, question: Are the ends of the ram rod glued on that would come loosen with a heat gun?

 

[HC]

Take a cleaning jag and grind it to a drill point or similar to a spade bit. Screw it to the ramrod and hand turn until the desired depth is reached. Or epoxy an undersized drill bit into an aluminum arrow shaft let set until cured, then hand turn until desired depth is reached.

 

[WV Hunter]

I haven't even looked at mine yet, but I just looked online for drill bits... Harbor Freight has what will work it appears for cheap - or you could rig up something as Herschel suggested.

5/16 in., 3/8 in., 7/16 in. 25 in. Long Wood Bit Set, 3 Pc.

 

[Smyrnagc]

I haven't even looked at mine yet, but I just looked online for drill bits... Harbor Freight has what will work it appears for cheap - or you could rig up something as Herschel suggested.

5/16 in., 3/8 in., 7/16 in. 25 in. Long Wood Bit Set, 3 Pc.

Perfect! Thanks Mike!

 

[Smyrnagc]

I haven't even looked at mine yet, but I just looked online for drill bits... Harbor Freight has what will work it appears for cheap - or you could rig up something as Herschel suggested.

5/16 in., 3/8 in., 7/16 in. 25 in. Long Wood Bit Set, 3 Pc.

Went to HF last night and picked up this bit set and with a 20% off coupon got it out the door for $8. Had to take the barrel off to do it and it only took 5 minutes. Thanks again for the help guys!

 

[WV Hunter]

Nice! What size bit did you use? 3/8"?
Its officially on my list.... lol