Scoping a traditional rifle for fun

[cayuga]

I had purchased a number of Simmons Pro Sport 4x32mm scopes from Natchez.com and wanted to scope a tradtional rifle that had a common twist. I wanted this to test my theory that by having a scope on a tradtional rifle it would let me play with the inlines in side by side accuracy.

12/10/10 16? slight wind, snowing lightly, damp and cold.
Thompson Center New Englander .54 caliber percussion cap rifle.
1-48 twist barrel.
1.5-6x40mm Traditions Illuminated cross hair scope.
90 grains of Pyrodex RS RWS 1075 caps
.530 Hornady roundball, pillow tick patch, moosemilk lube.
No swabbing.


The rifle I decided to scope was a Thompson Center .54 caliber New Englander. I first tired to set that Simmons Pro Sport 4x32mm scope but discovered that the hammer on the rifle no matter how I adjusted the scope, hit the bell housing of the scope, so it would not work.

I then remembered a long scope I had which might clear that rear bell issue. It was a Traditions Illuminated cross hair 1.5-6x40mm scope. Traditions had them on sale one day for $49.99 so I decided to see if I could break one. Plus I always wanted to test how well the illuminated cross hairs really work. It had been on a Green Mountain Barrel .50 caliber and had over 200 rounds through it. It was once even on my Remington Genesis. So the scope had went through a lot of abuse. I decided to see if it would stand for a little more.

I mounted the scope and as I suspected it did clear the hammer so there was no issue with bending the thing, or doing anything else.

I had bore sighted the rifle in the house so I was sure it would be close to being on. I set the target out at 30 yards just to zero it.

The first two shots were 2-1/2 inches to the right. So I made an adjustment and then shot a five shot group. Needless to say I was pleased with that group.

I then moved the target back to 50 yards and shot three shots. Again, it clover leafed. I was surprised though that the hits were basically in the same spot as they were at 30 yards. I would have suspected they might have came down a little. I was going to photograph them and discovered the camera batteries had gone dead, sitting out in the cold.

I decided to end the shooting session as I was getting cold also. And next time out I want to see how the rifle does at 100 yards. If it is going to be as accurate as I believe it will be, this would make a nice rifle for all around hunting, with that big roundball in it.

 

[k]

boy that scope looks huge on that new englander,but the results speak for themselves.well done.i have a .50 with a little 2.5 lupy that shoots 250 xtp's like that but haven,t come up with a prb load like that,yet.you seem to have goodluck with pyro.do you think its as good as goex in accuracy......karl

 

[cayuga]

IMO the two most consistent powder are Pyrodex RS and Goex 2f. If a rifle will not shoot well with either of those two powders, then normally I can not get one to shoot. Granted Pyrodex is dirty compared to other powders. And there is fouling in the bore, but it is soft. But to give you a heads up.. On the water bath today, the second patch came up clean. And I was not swabbing between shots. I then swabbed the bore with Rusty Duck Black Off and it did pull a little more fouling, but really nothing much.

I want to get that rifle to the 100 yard distance and see if it will hold good groups. Also I want to try some sabots in this rifle but I have to get some .500 bullets for the sabots.

 

[frontier gander]

i love them darn 54s! i honestly dont think i could ever get bored shooting the same 54 over and over. Something about the hole they leave that makes it so fun.

 

[GM54-120]

I want to get that rifle to the 100 yard distance and see if it will hold good groups. Also I want to try some sabots in this rifle but I have to get some .500 bullets for the sabots.

I have a nice supply of the sabots and some 300gr 50s for them. The GoldDot/DC 300gr HP is about the shortest i have. Im not sure how well they would stabilize but they are fairly short.

 

[cayuga]

When the weather breaks, and it is now blowing snow all over the place I will cast up some .459 and see if they will work out of them sabots. Otherwise I will downsize some REAL conicals and see if they can be shot out of a sabot. I have a 280 grain for the .50 caliber in a REAL that might work.

 

[lou42]

I did all this shooting this past summer, over a period of about 4 months.
My next series to test will be with T/C Cheapshots, Shockwaves, and maybe I'll test some 460 Grain No Excuses.

The trick to shooting a flintlock is to not move the rifle until the shot has left the barrel. Easier said then done, but it can be done with a bit of meditation between shots, at least that's what works for me.
It also helps to 'tune' the lock setup. Not just the mechanical part, but also how and where I prime the pan, sharp flint that sparks well, etc.

I want to try some Swiss FFG this coming summer and see how well it shoots in my rifle. I just don't have the money to get some yet.

Lou

 

[cayuga]

I own several flintlocks including a T/C Hawkins. They are great shooting. And your right, follow through of the shot is very important with a flintlock.

That is a real good shooter you have there. I had a peep sight on a Renegade for a while but did not like it. It was great at the range mind you. Very accurate actually. But in the swamps and marshes where I hunt, in those last fifteen minutes of the day when you see the ghost deer walking around, that peep was just not working for me. So I went to a RED Dot. That did not work for me. So I went to a 1x scope. That was the trick. Now our state has decided that magnification can be used in scopes. So I am setting up a few of the traditional rifle with scopes. So far, I am real pleased.

My batteries finally took a charge and so I was able to take a picture of the 50 (range finder said 47 yards) yard group. Notice they are starting to string. That could be from me or maybe the powder charge needs some adjustment. More shooting will tell the story. Also I still am amazed that the group location did not hardly change from 30 to 47 yards. Granted that is only 17 yards. But I have seen less distance then that start to effect the rifles. So I guess that rifle would be good to go out to 50 yards.

 

[lewistt]

So much for the superiority of an inline. It appears that if you can see it, it makes it easier to hit it.

 

[cayuga]

Exactly! That has always been my argument when a very traditional shooter started to claim that inlines had no place in the muzzle loading field because they were so much more superior in accuracy and such.

When the argument of traditional rifle shooters don't have a chance against an inline, I used to tell them... it has nothing to do with the rifle for the most part. It is the ability to see your target. Most inlines (not all mind you) were scoped. Those that are not scoped had to play by about the same standards if you will, as the tradition rifle in skilled hands.

When I first mounted a 4x32mm scope on a fast twist barrel traditional rifle, I was shocked at how accurate it was. It would keep up with my inline rifles all day. But I never mounted one on a moderate twist barrel like a 1-48. So this experiment is going to see if that scope made the difference. I think it will. Funny thing, last night when I was wiping down some of my rifles, I rechecked the New Englander and found that the 1.5-6 power scope was on 3. So I was not even using the full ability of the scope yet.

 

[fliowa]

I have a Thompson Center Firestorm caplock. Has the 1 in 28 twist barrel and uses 209 primers. It's just as accurate as any of my inlines that are not scoped. I know if I scoped it it would shoot right along with with most of my scoped inlines.

 

[cayuga]

Actually my most accurate unscoped rifle is my 32 inch 1-70 twist .58 caliber Green Mountain Rifle barrel on my Renegade. That rifle barrel will just flat out shoot!!! Although I was shooting my White .504 inline with open sights shooting large conical bullets, and that would be a very close second. I'd hate to live on the difference.

 

[lou42]

That is some fine shooting !

The only reason my Hawkin doesn't have a scope on it is because of PA's muzzleloader season. It runs from the day after Christmas until sometime in mid-January and does not permit the use of scopes.
I agree with a peep being difficult to use sometimes but I have a 2nd aperture that I opened up a bit and I use that for hunting.
Almost all M-16's and M-4's have peep sights only, so I have a ton of experience using them in all light conditions. I have also used the ACOG and dot sights when I was fortunate to have them issued to me and I have a strong preference for them as well as scopes.

My only complaint about my Hawkin is that it seems to have the bore drilled slightly off center. It hits a bit to the left, about 4 inches at 100 yards, when the sights are lined up straight with the barrel itself. Weird ! :shock:
It can shoot 1.5" groups at 100 yards when I do my part, I just can't seem to find any of the targets I shot at that range right now. I will post them when I find them.

I've been looking for a 1-28" twist flintlock barrel so I can use the heavy 460 grain and 495 grain NE's. Would love to use that setup for hunting out west ! The Oryx of White Sands Missile Range come to mind

Lou

 

[cayuga]

I have shot the 460 grain conicals out of my Green Mountain Barrels with the fast twist, and they do an excellent job. I also got a 21 inch carbine flintlock barrel that is for a White Mountain Carbine, made by Green Mountain Barrel. It fits my Hawkins flintlock and shoots sabots excellent. I have not tried the conicals in it, but see no reason why it would not do well with them.

 

[doulos]

Actually my most accurate unscoped rifle is my 32 inch 1-70 twist .58 caliber Green Mountain Rifle barrel on my Renegade. That rifle barrel will just flat out shoot!!! Although I was shooting my White .504 inline with open sights shooting large conical bullets, and that would be a very close second. I'd hate to live on the difference.

I have that same barrel on a Renegade and concur. It will put them in just about the same hole at 50yds. And I believe if it was scoped it would out shoot most of my inlines at 100. In fact i think most of my roundbal guns would shoot lights out with a scope.

 

[cayuga]

Scoping a traditional rifle for fun (updated)

Rifle: Thompson Center New Englander .54 caliber 1-48 twist
Scope: Traditions Illuminated cross hair model 1.5-6x40mm
Powder: Pyrodex RS and Triple Seven 2f
Projectiles: home cast .530 roundball with moosemilk patch and 250 grain Hornady XTP .452 with Red Harvester .54/.452 sabots. RWS 1075 caps
Distance: 71 yards with range finder bench rest
Weather: 16? slight wind (not much thank goodness) and very sunny


When I got up this morning it was -19.9 below zero and we are not talking wind chill here. A little warmer then yesterday morning at least. But the weather man said there was a chance for sun shine and temps in the teens. So I knew I had a shot at some range time. I kept my eye on the thermometer and the sky.

I had taken the scope off when I cleaned last time and wanted to see how close it would come back. I knew it was dead on at 50 and expected it to be a little higher on the target at 70 (since the rifle was technically sighted in for 100 yards) so time would tell.

I checked and it said 14? above zero. That was good enough for me. I got everything ready, rifle, targets, swab solution of pure alcohol, etc and headed to my back yard.

I decided to start with Roundball and a moosemilk patch. Last time out at 50 yards it groups very good but was stringing a little. I still decided to stick with 90 grains of Pyrodex RS just to see what would happen.

The first shot on a clean barrel (and this rifle has a bore treatment currently working in it.) kind of surprised me. I did not swab since I was shooting Pyrodex RS and round ball and shot three more times. Actually for the first group at that distance, other then it being a lot higher then I thought it would be, I was pleased with the group.

So I swabbed the barrel clean with Simple Green, then used alcohol to make sure it was dry, and then dry patched it and popped two caps. I then decided to see how much difference the 250 grain Hornady XTP would do on the same kind of target. I loaded with 80 grain of Triple Seven 2f and shot at the lower set of bulls eyes.

Again, suprised at how high they were hitting, but very pleased with the way this 1-48 twist barrel shot sabots. For that distance, I was more then pleased.

I then swabbed the barrel again and reloaded pyrodex RS and shot a roundball. It shows adj #1. Not enough of an adjustment. So I made another adjustment and shot the final set of hits. The first two were real good, and I was pleased. Then the next two came in low and wild and I was not sure what was happening.

So I swabbed the barrel clean and loaded triple Seven to see what the scope adjustment did to the XTP's. It stacked the two on the top. I swabbed and had a misfire with the Triple Seven. A new cap went off and it gave me the one touching the bull. I would not call it a misfire but it had a strange sound to it. I was worried about swabbing again. Maybe the cold and the fact of the swab was not agreeing with the Triple Seven powder. So I loaded and shot again and the results was the one next to the bulls eye.

By now I had been outside for over an hour and was really thinking .. Hot Coffee. So I decided to stop for the day and maybe get a warmer day. But over all this scoped traditional rifle is doing well. Especially with the XTPs. Sabotloader gave me the idea to try them in this rifle and he was right. A 1-48 twist will do a good job with sabots. One reason I used the Triple Seven because he has such good luck with it. As usual, I had a misfire. Oh well, that is the name of this sport.

Also this New Englander might have a single hunting trigger, but who ever did this one, did it right. It has to be one of the best single triggers I ever shot. No creep, and breaks crisp and clean.

 

[lou42]

If you were consistent with everything else, bullet seating, etc, I would say your vertical stringing is caused by the bedding of the barrel or tang. Maybe both. The extreme cold seems to magnify the issue. I noticed the same issue in my flintlock and sure enough, the barrel channel was bearing up too much at the tip of the fore end and not enough at the tang.
I sanded some of the for end down and glass bedded the tang and the barrel tip. No more vertical stringing !

Lou