Triple 7 FFFG weight vs. volume and Bullet to bore

[Deernewbie]

PLEASE FORGIVE MY LONG WINDEDNESS!
I Have a CVA Accura MR-X .45cal, 26in barrel, 1:22 twist. I intend to shoot Powerbelt .45 ELR and other similar bullet to bore projectiles up to 310gn. (Parker black max hollow base looks interesting)
I recently acquired triple 7 FFFG powder (suggested for .45cal and below). The manual states this rifle is intended for loose powder and I believe states maximal loads for both triple 7 and blackhorn 209. I didn't see blackhorn to be as cost effective and dont mind cleaning. I intend to measure propellant by weight as I was under the impression this was best practice for consistency.
Online sources state that 77.7gn of triple 7 FFG by weight is equal to 100gn by volume, as its name implies, and that for the finer FFFG; 66.6gn by weight is equal to 100gn by volume. any idea which is true??
When I reached out to CVA they were only willing to provide load suggestions by weight for blackhorn 209, when I reached out to Hodgon it was suggested to only use volumetric measurements for loose propellants because they can weigh differently due to environmental changes. Both of these responses have merit but seem a bit conflicting as I thought measurement by weight was commonplace for loose blackhorn 209. If environmental changes affect weight/density this could presumably affect volume equally as well.
Should I be measuring triple 7 FFFG by weight? and if so how do I determine the appropriate volume equivalent?
Any responses and load suggestions are very much appreciated!
Rifle still remains unfired.

 

[MrTom]

I'd use a volume measure to measure out ten loads, keeping each separate from the others. Be as precise as possible in repeating yourself to get those ten loads. Now weigh each load. Add the weight totals together, divide by ten and that's your weighed weight for a 100 grain charge.

 

[ElDiablo]

Personally I wouldn’t mess with weighing loads. You will not see any difference in dispersion (accuracy) at typical hunting ranges. I do weigh some BH209 charges for longer range 250-350 yard hunting. But it really isn’t necessary for most guys.

If you just want to use weight, I’d go with MrToms method.

Side note (semantics) - an ELR isn’t what I would refer to as Bullet-to-bore. Sized (smooth or full-formed) jacketed (or monometal) bullets are referred to as bullet-to-bore. Powerbelts, Boredrivers, Bore Locks, No Excuses, Bullshops, etc are what I would call conicals.

 

[Deernewbie]

I'd use a volume measure to measure out ten loads, keeping each separate from the others. Be as precise as possible in repeating yourself to get those ten loads. Now weigh each load. Add the weight totals together, divide by ten and that's your weighed weight for a 100 grain charge.

fantastic and simple! really appreciate the suggestion. I'm sure google will help me with this, but any suggestions for best device to measure volume?

 

[Deernewbie]

Personally I wouldn’t mess with weighing loads. You will not see any difference in dispersion (accuracy) at typical hunting ranges. I do weigh some BH209 charges for longer range 250-350 yard hunting. But it really isn’t necessary for most guys.

If you just want to use weight, I’d go with MrToms method.

Side note (semantics) - an ELR isn’t what I would refer to as Bullet-to-bore. Sized (smooth or full-formed) jacketed (or monometal) bullets are referred to as bullet-to-bore. Powerbelts, Boredrivers, Bore Locks, No Excuses, Bullshops, etc are what I would call conicals.

thank you! I appreciate the distinction. my end goal is a rifle with acceptable accuracy to 200 yds(sure id be content with further) and to use in hunting scenarios at max 120-130yds.

 

[ElDiablo]

fantastic and simple! really appreciate the suggestion. I'm sure google will help me with this, but any suggestions for best device to measure volume?

I use and recommend a measure like this

 

[smokepolehall]

I use and recommend a measure like this

View attachment 33109

I have same type of powder measure, it does the job very well

 

[Okie Hog]

The best measure is this one from TC:

https://accessories.tcarms.com/fire...e-for-blackpowder-50-120-grains/31007040.html

 

[Deernewbie]

all responses have been fantastic and helpful. this now begs the question. are volume measurements different in FFFG vs. FFG?

because one is a finer powder? (ex. less FFFG has the energy equivalent of slightly more FFG?) if granulation effects density...

I could be entirely wrong and overthinking, or the difference could just not be signifigant.

thank you in advance for responses as I continue to browse for like threads and answers

 

[ElDiablo]

Yes. 3F is finer so more of it (weight) in the a given unit of volume. And it burns faster.

 

[SparkPlug]

Just find the load of 2f or 3f your gun likes and stick with that powder. Then, do as Mr. Tom said.

For just plinking I simply measure my load by volume. I even do this when hunting at home (shots are 65yds and under). However, at my farm or at my brother's place shots are possible at 200yds +, so I use the weight method for shot consistency, calculated as Mr. Tom said.

 

[MrTom]

Something to think about with any granular powder other than BH209 which is ridiculously consistent in granule size, is that all of the finer powder crumbs will sift to the bottom of the container. If one weighs these fines based on the average weight of the coarser granules found higher up in the jug, things will be heavier but show less volume. IF one is shooting based on VOLUME, expect those fines at the end of a jug to seem a bit more kicky. The finer grains take up less space than the coarser ones which leave more air space, so that volume measure is putting MORE powder in the tube than one might think.

I have a buddy that shoots T7 a lot so when my jug of fffg gets down there and the granules seem smaller, I give the remainder to him to use in his sidelock.
While weighing the powder gives me relative control over the charges it does so only if I consciously keep that fine stuff out of the charges because the fine stuff has an entirely different burn rate and can mess with the consistency I want. I'm loading the equivalent of either 90 or 110 grains of the fffg so I leave maybe fifteen to 20 loads in the bottom of the bottle so I don't have the fine stuff involved.

 

[Deernewbie]

thank you MrTom! what are you shooting if you don't mind me asking?

so just to confirm...
im loading less FFFG by volume then what is suggested for FFG powder because it is "denser"(less air in volume measure)?

wouldn't weighing it help negate this to some degree?

any suggestions on grain volume ranges to get started ?

 

[smokepolehall]

thank you MrTom! what are you shooting if you don't mind me asking?

so just to confirm...
im loading less FFFG by volume then what is suggested for FFG powder because it is "denser"(less air in volume measure)?

wouldn't weighing it help negate this to some degree?

any suggestions on grain volume ranges to get started ?

No, the 3 f is smaller in size n more grs than 2 f in the volume load. So that is why it gets higher velocity than the same load of 2 f.

 

[smokepolehall]

thank you MrTom! what are you shooting if you don't mind me asking?

so just to confirm...
im loading less FFFG by volume then what is suggested for FFG powder because it is "denser"(less air in volume measure)?

wouldn't weighing it help negate this to some degree?

any suggestions on grain volume ranges to get started ?

So what bullet combo are you going to shoot ? Then we can give a ball-park load est. Usually a 45 can handle 60-100 gr of 3f T7 or the 2f T7

 

[MrTom]

thank you MrTom! what are you shooting if you don't mind me asking?

so just to confirm...
im loading less FFFG by volume then what is suggested for FFG powder because it is "denser"(less air in volume measure)?

wouldn't weighing it help negate this to some degree?

any suggestions on grain volume ranges to get started ?

My Kodiak .45 shoots a 195 or 200 grain bullets with 63 weighed grains [approx 90 volume grains] of bh209. My Accura V2 shoots 77 weighed grains [approx 110 grains by volume] of BH209 under a 250 grain bullet and my Optima pistol uses the same 63 grain by weight charge as the Kodiak but with a 225 grain bullet. My .45 Patriot will shoot only smokeless and has no bearing here. For the range I simply have done the ten volume measures of T7 fffg, weighing each, adding the totals, dividing by ten to establish the average weight measure for each gun using BH209 in the field. It matters not at all which of the three guns I decide to shoot, the weighed amount of T7 for that gun and bullet replicates the BH209 charge so close to exactly that it isn't worth mentioning.

Currently I am shooting Winchester shot shell 209 reloading primers exclusively. When those go away I'll be shooting Cheddite primers until I can find more of the Winchester.

If I shoot T7 ffg in each gun with all other variables regarding charge weigh, bullet/sabot, primer the same as with the appropriate bh209 charge for the gun, I find the crud ring far more aggressive, and the residue from firing by far dirtier. T7 fffg shoots substantially cleaner in my guns. Accuracy has been way more consistent with the fffg. Remember now, I am not weighing powder that has a mess of fine particles in it. When I get low enough in the jug of fffg to begin dragging those fines into the charge being weighed, the jug is passed on to a fried for use in his sidelock or I set it aside to use in a few of my sidelocks. Tf granular is not that spendy and I am happy to go buy a fresh jug when the current jug starts to show fines more than normal. I'm retired and have time on my hands so weighing charges, be it BH or T7, is one thing I can do to stay consistent with my in-lines. Sidelocks using the discard powder, if you will, are shot for casual fun, usually with grandkids, so I could care less how much fines are in it. With my bench shooting and hunting, I want ever possible glitch either removed or curtailed so I ca shoot with confidence. And that should be every person's goal regardless if the powder is weighed or simply measured by volume.

 

[Confederate rifleman]

Triple Seven is so called because 100 grains, by volume, weighs 77.7 grains. Pyrodex is the same I believe.
When I shot T7, I noticed a lot of dust, fines as old timers called it with black powder, when getting to the last of the pound.
It's a rather fragile grained powder, but it's good stuff.
The key to avoiding fines is minimal movement of the container.
I prefer to weigh all my charges. Even black powder. It's true a grain or two one way or 'tuther doesn't have the same effect it would with smokeless, but if there's an issue with the load, I know the consistency of the charge weight isn't it.
Good fortune to ye

 

[Charger1]

Deer...I have the same MZ as you. I believe the manual states not to use fffg, and only use ffg. Can any one elaborate on this. It also states BH only for the .45???

 

[Deernewbie]

So what bullet combo are you going to shoot ? Then we can give a ball-park load est. Usually a 45 can handle 60-100 gr of 3f T7 or the 2f T7

right now I have .45 ELR Powerbelts 285gn.

 

[Deernewbie]

Deer...I have the same MZ as you. I believe the manual states not to use fffg, and only use ffg. Can any one elaborate on this. It also states BH only for the .45???

have not seen a recommendation for granulation in mine although could have missed. went with the FFFG because triple 7 recommends for .45cal and below/advantage of faster burn rate...
the .45 came with the BH209 Breach plug but manual I believe states for loose propellants(wish I had it in front of me)

open to all suggestions for both Charger1 and I