What type of wad are you using?

[goco4game]

My buddy (what a guy!) lent me his brand spanking new Lyman Great Plains mold and I cast up a bunch of pretty bullets. Inspected, weighed and sorted to within one grain (max range I'll ever shoot elk with open sights is 200 yards). Lubed with Nasa plus Stihl oil. Sized down to fit my bore nicely. Took them to the range and expected them to shoot into one hole like everybody else is doing.
TC Omega stainless steel .50 cal with QLA removed and recrowned, GP bullets 400 grains at about 8.5 BHN, 100 grains volume equivalent weighed to within .1 grain of BH209, dry wool wad 1/8" .54 cal, Fed 209A primer, Bestill carbide breechplug, Leupold VX Freedom on 12x, fairly stable shooting bench and rests, moderate wind, about 80 degrees. Have been switching stocks but just now settled on a synthetic TC thumbhole for elk hunting in just a month from now. It has been reinforced with JB weld behind both action lugs, barrel free floated, and screws torqued to proper specs.
At 100 yards, four three-shot groups went from 3-1/2" to !-3/4" for an average of 2-1/2". Quite consistent with no flyers, but what am I doing wrong?
Wondering if it's me and/or my shooting technique, I shot some sabots (which are illegal to hunt with in Colorado) and then my .270 centerfire and nope, got much better groups. So I don't think it's me or the scope mounts. I have gotten a couple of sub-inch groups with other home cast conicals, but consistency is eluding me.
Went back a couple of days ago and tried again, but this time the only thing I changed was to use a .50 cal wool wad instead of .54, and the groups improved somewhat. For once I was able to shoot at 200 yards without high winds and got an incredible group of 1-1/8", but that may have been an anomaly??
So my question is, "What's the consensus on wool wads for accuracy?" Frankly, I find it difficult to get the oversized .54's to get started straight in a .50 bore and often end up fishing them out with a tweezers and starting over. And yes, I have watched Idaholewis' video on "scrunching" the wads. My hand tremor doesn't help any, but I'm not so good at "scrunching".

So what are you all doing with wads and conicals for best accuracy?

 

[ENCORE50A]

Just use a regular 50cal wool wad IMO.

 

[eekjellander]

My buddy (what a guy!) lent me his brand spanking new Lyman Great Plains mold and I cast up a bunch of pretty bullets. Inspected, weighed and sorted to within one grain (max range I'll ever shoot elk with open sights is 200 yards). Lubed with Nasa plus Stihl oil. Sized down to fit my bore nicely. Took them to the range and expected them to shoot into one hole like everybody else is doing.
TC Omega stainless steel .50 cal with QLA removed and recrowned, GP bullets 400 grains at about 8.5 BHN, 100 grains volume equivalent weighed to within .1 grain of BH209, dry wool wad 1/8" .54 cal, Fed 209A primer, Bestill carbide breechplug, Leupold VX Freedom on 12x, fairly stable shooting bench and rests, moderate wind, about 80 degrees. Have been switching stocks but just now settled on a synthetic TC thumbhole for elk hunting in just a month from now. It has been reinforced with JB weld behind both action lugs, barrel free floated, and screws torqued to proper specs.
At 100 yards, four three-shot groups went from 3-1/2" to !-3/4" for an average of 2-1/2". Quite consistent with no flyers, but what am I doing wrong?
Wondering if it's me and/or my shooting technique, I shot some sabots (which are illegal to hunt with in Colorado) and then my .270 centerfire and nope, got much better groups. So I don't think it's me or the scope mounts. I have gotten a couple of sub-inch groups with other home cast conicals, but consistency is eluding me.
Went back a couple of days ago and tried again, but this time the only thing I changed was to use a .50 cal wool wad instead of .54, and the groups improved somewhat. For once I was able to shoot at 200 yards without high winds and got an incredible group of 1-1/8", but that may have been an anomaly??
So my question is, "What's the consensus on wool wads for accuracy?" Frankly, I find it difficult to get the oversized .54's to get started straight in a .50 bore and often end up fishing them out with a tweezers and starting over. And yes, I have watched Idaholewis' video on "scrunching" the wads. My hand tremor doesn't help any, but I'm not so good at "scrunching".

So what are you all doing with wads and conicals for best accuracy?

Try the 54 oversized (I DO) and place the conical over than seat , works every time/Ed

 

[52Bore]

Wool wads have been used since the early1800’s.
It’s a natural fiber that is readily available.

Good gun, load, bullets - routine… good results expected with some experimenting.

Best of luck.

 

[goco4game]

Try the 54 oversized (I DO) and place the conical over than seat , works every time/Ed

Let me get this straight.
With the rifle propped up vertically, I center the .54 wad over the .50 bore, then center a flat based conical over the wad, and attempt to force it down the bore with a short starter? I just tried it.
FAIL!
I cannot fathom that working well unless you have VERY generously recessed rifling type of QLA??

 

[eekjellander]

Let me get this straight.
With the rifle propped up vertically, I center the .54 wad over the .50 bore, then center a flat based conical over the wad, and attempt to force it down the bore with a short starter? I just tried it.
FAIL!
I cannot fathom that working well unless you have VERY generously recessed rifling type of QLA??

Not a QLA in the house ,won"t have one . You are not understanding me so I will try to do better ! I did not say try to center over bore, I said start it down the hole regardless of barrel plumb . Yes it might tilt but you will not see it as the conical is going to force it down positioned correctly (unless you have a QLA ) in which case cut it off . Myself like Idaholewis do this without fail every time successfully on sidelocks but now that you mention it neither one of us has a QLA
(avoid them like the plaque ) /never occured to me to mention the possibility /if so sorry but otherwise do as I suggested (or not) . It should not matter inline or sidelock. Your experience is something not experienced by the masses /Ed

 

[eekjellander]

I just reread your post and missed the part where you mentioned resizing that conical (mistake) like the LEE (REAL) the drive bands are different for a reason ! You must us soft/pure lead other wise they are a bear to load , no sizing or they will not (WORK) nuff said/Ed

 

[deermanok]

I mostly shoot patched round ball. When I do shoot flat base conicals, TC maxi hunters, I do use an over powder wad. 50 cal for 50 cal. Not sure what the material is that they're made of. Wool, I guess.
Haven't tried them yet with a patched round ball but have read that they do help with accuracy.

 

[eekjellander]

I mostly shoot patched round ball. When I do shoot flat base conicals, TC maxi hunters, I do use an over powder wad. 50 cal for 50 cal. Not sure what the material is that they're made of. Wool, I guess.
Haven't tried them yet with a patched round ball but have read that they do help with accuracy.

They do for me ,especially if you misjudged thickness/material on the patch as a (FELT by the way) look up Durafelt Where I buy (nice people) will cushion the abuse and get a little more horse power along the way. The extra time is worth it when that squirrel you waited on 1/2 the day finally shows and for retired folks we got the time and need the meat

 

[sabotloader]

Not many are going to like this but I use MMP black 50 cal Sub bases. These seal the gas very reduces heat on the bottom of the lead bullet. Easy to load and shoot great.

They are not attached to bullet so they deemed legal. I use them with Bull Shops Conicals and full bore Brass/ Cooper or even Copper-lead bullets.

 

[Matthew323]

A wad under a patched ball should NOT be necessary. If your accuracy is improved with a wad under a patched ball, then you are doing SOMETHING WRONG. It's the patch COMPLETELY FILLING the grooves around the ball that should be completing the seal, NOT A WAD.

Regardless of the depth of the grooves in your barrel, there is a patch thickness for the particular ball diameter that you wish to shoot, that ABSOLUTELY will create a proper seal behind the ball so that the combustion gases can't escape around the ball to scorch the patch, blow holes in the patch, or cause a loss in velocity.

A properly coned, or radiused, crown will greatly help in getting a tight fitting ball/patch combination past the muzzle. There are some barrels that will ONLY achieve their best accuracy with a lead ball the same diameter as the bore. Believe it, or not, a soft, pure lead ball, say 0.500" diameter for a .50 caliber bore with a 0.532" groove diameter, and 0.016" deep round bottom grooves WILL NOT require a dead blow hammer to drive the ball into the barrel. This is for target shooting, not hunting accuracy.

Anyway, to get back to the thrust of this thread. Idaholewis felt that to achieve HIS best target accuracy, he needed a wool wad one caliber larger than the bore diameter of the projectile that he was shooting. Others feel a wad the same size as the bore diameter that they are shooting is adequate. It's all about experimenting in order to find out what the particular barrel that you are shooting RIGHT NOW requires, because I can guarantee you that the rifle's barrel right next to it in your gun safe is going to need something JUST A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT. It always seems to work out that way.

 

[edmehlig]

Not many are going to like this but I use MMP black 50 cal Sub bases. These seal the gas very reduces heat on the bottom of the lead bullet. Easy to load and shoot great.

They are not attached to bullet so they deemed legal. I use them with Bull Shops Conicals and full bore Brass/ Cooper or even Copper-lead bullets.

Mike, I wish they made them for 45 cal!

 

[Okie Hog]

Not many are going to like this but I use MMP black 50 cal Sub bases.

The sub bases worked well for me when i used conicals.

 

[eekjellander]

A wad under a patched ball should NOT be necessary. If your accuracy is improved with a wad under a patched ball, then you are doing SOMETHING WRONG. It's the patch COMPLETELY FILLING the grooves around the ball that should be completing the seal, NOT A WAD.

Regardless of the depth of the grooves in your barrel, there is a patch thickness for the particular ball diameter that you wish to shoot, that ABSOLUTELY will create a proper seal behind the ball so that the combustion gases can't escape around the ball to scorch the patch, blow holes in the patch, or cause a loss in velocity.

A properly coned, or radiused, crown will greatly help in getting a tight fitting ball/patch combination past the muzzle. There are some barrels that will ONLY achieve their best accuracy with a lead ball the same diameter as the bore. Believe it, or not, a soft, pure lead ball, say 0.500" diameter for a .50 caliber bore with a 0.532" groove diameter, and 0.016" deep round bottom grooves WILL NOT require a dead blow hammer to drive the ball into the barrel. This is for target shooting, not hunting accuracy.

Anyway, to get back to the thrust of this thread. Idaholewis felt that to achieve HIS best target accuracy, he needed a wool wad one caliber larger than the bore diameter of the projectile that he was shooting. Others feel a wad the same size as the bore diameter that they are shooting is adequate. It's all about experimenting in order to find out what the particular barrel that you are shooting RIGHT NOW requires, because I can guarantee you that the rifle's barrel right next to it in your gun safe is going to need something JUST A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT. It always seems to work out that way.

You got the 1st part right , I said the patched ball is cushioned by the wad (I*N CASE) you screwed up as in (WRONG Patch material for the bore condition(dirty) or wrong thickness or wrong material all which can and will fail (IF) your charge is to big for those conditions .Consider the wad insurance for those conditions mentioned (That is fact) aside from saving patch integrity it prevents gas cutting raising velocity . And lastly I do not know about your barrels but my many RB + conicals barrels ( All benefit ) from felt wads (some dry /some lubed being the only distinction in barrel requirements all benefit in greater accuracy ! I will not get into coning But Idaho lewis like me would not keep a coned barrel in the house /just stating fact Ed

 

[deermanok]

I find that all my guns are not created equal as to patch thickness use.
A couple like a .010". Another is good with a .015, and my other rifles are good with a .018 pillow ticking patch.
Yesterday morning I was shooting a new to me CVA mountain stalker rifle. That gun was loaded up with a patched ball and a .018 pillow ticking patch. It seemed to me that I could have gone with a thicker .020" patch of which I don't have any of at the moment. I wonder if I could have used the over powder wad in this instance.

 

[eekjellander]

I find that all my guns are not created equal as to patch thickness use.
A couple like a .010". Another is good with a .015, and my other rifles are good with a .018 pillow ticking patch.
Yesterday morning I was shooting a new to me CVA mountain stalker rifle. That gun was loaded up with a patched ball and a .018 pillow ticking patch. It seemed to me that I could have gone with a thicker .020" patch of which I don't have any of at the moment. I wonder if I could have used the over powder wad in this instance.

Absolutely but next time try it and see ,a chrono will show the difference between a weak patch and one backed with a 1/8 felt wad . The best option is proper patch but the wad is always insurance when the squirrel shows up with buddies (extra FPS means penetration) in gangs/Ed

 

[deermanok]

Absolutely but next time try it and see ,a chrono will show the difference between a weak patch and one backed with a 1/8 felt wad . The best option is proper patch but the wad is always insurance when the squirrel shows up with buddies (extra FPS means penetration) in gangs/Ed

I will try it for sure. Nice thing about being retired now I have plenty of time to try different things. When I was working, I could only get to the range once or twice before deer season to check the guns. If I could shoot minute of paper plate at 50 or 100 yards, I was good.

 

[Matthew323]

You got the 1st part right , I said the patched ball is cushioned by the wad (I*N CASE) you screwed up as in (WRONG Patch material for the bore condition(dirty) or wrong thickness or wrong material all which can and will fail (IF) your charge is to big for those conditions .Consider the wad insurance for those conditions mentioned (That is fact) aside from saving patch integrity it prevents gas cutting raising velocity . And lastly I do not know about your barrels but my many RB + conicals barrels ( All benefit ) from felt wads (some dry /some lubed being the only distinction in barrel requirements all benefit in greater accuracy ! I will not get into coning But Idaho lewis like me would not keep a coned barrel in the house /just stating fact Ed

A coned muzzle, IS NOT, and I repeat, IS NOT, the equivalent of Thompson/Center's QLA (Quick Load Accurizer) muzzle treatment.

The QLA is nothing more than a fancy term for a deep counterbore at the muzzle without any rifling. It is supposed to allow the shooter to fully insert a bullet into the barrel without having to initially force the base of the bullet into the rifling. The idea was to enhance accuracy by NOT damaging the base of the bullet. What happened in reality was that because of manufacturing flaws & tooling wear, more than 90% of the barrel's produced with a QLA muzzle were slightly, to greatly off center from the bore. Which meant that the bullet entered the bore canted at an angle, and even worse, left the muzzle upon ignition spinning off center due to the gases not surrounding the bullet evenly until they had dispersed. This caused erratic flight, which meant miserable accuracy.

A coned muzzle, on the other hand, is NOTHING MORE, than a radiused crown. It is NO DEEPER than a normal crown. Starting with a crown that is cut at a distinct, measureable angle, such as 60°, it is smoothed over, usually with the pad of one's thumb pressing against some form of abrasive paper/cloth.

Starting with courser grits, and ending with finer grits.

Pressing against the crown, rotate the barrel back & forth 20 times, stop, turn the barrel 90° (1) *** Pressing against the crown, rotate the barrel back & forth 20 times, stop, rotate the barrel 90° (2) *** Pressing against the crown, rotate the barrel back & forth 20 times, stop, rotate the barrel 90° (3) *** Pressing against the crown, rotate the barrel back & forth 20 times, stop, rotate the barrel 90° ***

This completes one full revolution of radiusing the muzzle. If using three different grits of abrasive paper, it should take no more than 1-2 full revolutions per grit size to turn a straight angle crown into a radiused crown, or coned muzzle.

What a coned muzzle does is allow a tightly patched ball to enter the rifling grooves in a smooth fashion. Specifically, for the bunched up cloth material surrounding the ball to fill the grooves without tearing on the leading edges of the lands.

All I know is that I stumbled upon the "SECRET" for this with my first .45 caliber longrifle at age 17. I coned the muzzle per instructions in Muzzle Blasts magazine in 1970/1971. That first rifle would shoot minute of angle, 5-shot accuracy at 100 yards, with a spit patched blue jeans material & a 0.445" diameter ball. All it took was a gentle rap on a short starter to get the ball/patch started. Hickory ramrod the rest of the way, choked up with 6"-8" strokes.

Same thing with my next 2 rifles, both Getz barrels. One in .50 caliber, and the other one in .62 caliber. Both came from the factory with coned muzzles, one of the only barrel manufacturers to offer such a service. Bobby Hoyt is another.[/QUOTE]

 

[Matthew323]

.

 

[ENCORE50A]

My buddy (what a guy!) lent me his brand spanking new Lyman Great Plains mold and I cast up a bunch of pretty bullets. Inspected, weighed and sorted to within one grain (max range I'll ever shoot elk with open sights is 200 yards). Lubed with Nasa plus Stihl oil. Sized down to fit my bore nicely. Took them to the range and expected them to shoot into one hole like everybody else is doing.
TC Omega stainless steel .50 cal with QLA removed and recrowned, GP bullets 400 grains at about 8.5 BHN, 100 grains volume equivalent weighed to within .1 grain of BH209, dry wool wad 1/8" .54 cal, Fed 209A primer, Bestill carbide breechplug, Leupold VX Freedom on 12x, fairly stable shooting bench and rests, moderate wind, about 80 degrees. Have been switching stocks but just now settled on a synthetic TC thumbhole for elk hunting in just a month from now. It has been reinforced with JB weld behind both action lugs, barrel free floated, and screws torqued to proper specs.
At 100 yards, four three-shot groups went from 3-1/2" to !-3/4" for an average of 2-1/2". Quite consistent with no flyers, but what am I doing wrong?
Wondering if it's me and/or my shooting technique, I shot some sabots (which are illegal to hunt with in Colorado) and then my .270 centerfire and nope, got much better groups. So I don't think it's me or the scope mounts. I have gotten a couple of sub-inch groups with other home cast conicals, but consistency is eluding me.
Went back a couple of days ago and tried again, but this time the only thing I changed was to use a .50 cal wool wad instead of .54, and the groups improved somewhat. For once I was able to shoot at 200 yards without high winds and got an incredible group of 1-1/8", but that may have been an anomaly??
So my question is, "What's the consensus on wool wads for accuracy?" Frankly, I find it difficult to get the oversized .54's to get started straight in a .50 bore and often end up fishing them out with a tweezers and starting over. And yes, I have watched Idaholewis' video on "scrunching" the wads. My hand tremor doesn't help any, but I'm not so good at "scrunching".

So what are you all doing with wads and conicals for best accuracy?

Are you shooting conical, sabots, or round ball? Seems this is turning into a round ball & patch post?????