Federal 50 caliber Muzzleloading Bullet Captured

Today the object was to capture one of these bullet traveling at near the speed at which it would be traveling at 200 yard, if shot from a rifle using a full power load. Apparently it has been reported these bullets expand nicely at 100 yard or so, but fail to expand at longer ranges. A chronograph was set at about 12 yard, and used to measure the speed of these bullet. Using a load of 65g Blackhorn resulted in a speed of 1335 fps at the clock. The literature included with the bullet say the speed of the bullet at 200 yard, if fired using a load of 120g Blackhorn, would be 1358 fps. Close enough.. the milk jugs filled with colored water were placed right there.









The load was 65g Blackhorn, 270g Federal Copper Muzzleloading Bullet, and Federal 215 rifle primer. One tenth second after impact the jugs..









Afterward, the jugs..









The bullet penetrated through three jugs, and into the fourth where the bullet was found.









The captured bullet weighs 266g. The unfired bullet weighs 270g. Seems, it is a myth these bullets don't expand at 200 yard; them petals are sharp nasty things that should do terrible things to lung tissue.

The VIDEO.

where's the nay sayers now.... good test and results

Thanks Ron. It would be interesting to compare expansion from a 120grV load at normal impact range...something close to 40 yards. It may or may not add some perspective into how well or differently the bullet expands at higher impact speeds.

Once again very nice Ron, Thank you for taking the time to educate the rest of us. Happy Turkey Day.

Happy day to you, and to all. Muley was prodding me; i had little free choice, but to test the bullet some more.

GM54-120 said:

Thanks Ron. It would be interesting to compare expansion from a 120grV load at normal impact range...something close to 40 yards. It may or may not add some perspective into how well or differently the bullet expands at higher impact speeds.

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The first time i shot the bullet, i was able to dig one out of the moist dirt behind the target. It held up well i thought. Seems to me the load may have been 90g Blackhorn, and the range was 93 yard to the target.









Note the plastic tip stayed in place when the bullet smashed into the dirt; makes me wonder what happened to the tip today.

Two things can explain this. The test that I saw on Jon's forum was actually shot at 200yds. So, maybe it wasn't going 1350fps in that test?

The second thing is the test i'm referring to was done on some bullets that Carlos got early. I think it was last spring. So, we have a long gap between that test, and the final release of the bullet to the public. It could be the delay was to change something in the bullet to get it to expand better. When I talked to Federal recently they didn't have an answer of why there was a long delay in production.

Either way it seems to expand fine in Ron's test.

it is a myth these bullets don't expand at 200 yard;

I know Dave, the guy that did the actual 200 yard test with a CVA MR. The charge was 110gr BH209 (by volume) The recovered bullet looked like it just came out of the packaging.....no expansion AT ALL. It also only penetrated 3 jugs. With that said it was noted above that this was early on & these were "test" bullets so it is very possible that Federal may have changed their composition. I'm not trying to make any excuse for anybody, just stating the facts as they happened at 200 yards - Greg

GregK said:

...I'm not trying to make any excuse for anybody, just stating the facts as they happened at 200 yards - Greg

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Are you? Are you? It seems to me you are making excuses for a myth. Today, wife and i recorded, and observed a real event. We loaded our rifle with 65g of powder, measured the real speed of the bullet, and recorded the bullet striking four milk jugs filled with water. The bullet was traveling at a very low speed; the speed a bullet would have at 200 yard, if it were fired from a rifle loaded with 120g of Blackhorn. What we observed was real; what we photographed was real. The Federal bullet expands wonderfully at the speed it would have at 200 yard, if shot from a rifle loaded with a maximum load of Blackhorn powder.

Just so we all understand, i will begin my muzzle loader season Monday, carrying the very same rifle i shot today, loaded with 110g Blackhorn, 300g Deep Curl, crush rib sabot, Federal 215 rifle primer. Just about the only reason we tested this bullet today, is because Muley requested. This bullet seems to be a good bullet for normal muzzle loader ranges, but for the longer ranges, it seems it will fall short...

great info and great test. These are still new and developing, so I watch with interest.

I did request that, so thank you Ron.

It seems to me you are making excuses for a myth. Today, wife and i recorded, and observed a real event.

Excuse me, but as I read this what I hear is you calling Dave & I both liars. Please explain why you would do such a thing - Greg

P.S. I've also asked Dave & Carlos to weigh in so you can accuse them of lying as well

Nice jug smuckin' test Ron.

Edited 11/28/14

Hey Muley, we had great fun doing the test. She kept warm, and was good company. She thinks the expanded bullet is 'pretty', and looks like a flower; me i think it looks 'awfully deadly'.

GregK,

My point was/is, wife and i were actually there setting up the test, and taking data. We did the work, and saw the results, and the method with our own eyes. It is my understanding after reading your post; you weren't there, and are reporting what you 'heard', or relaying hearsay. That could be how a myth is perpetuated.

Ron

Nice bullet. Just prefer to see it upon animal impact at high speed.

ronlaughlin said:

GregK,

My point was/is, wife and i were actually there setting up the test, and taking data. We did the work, and saw the results, and the method with our own eyes. It is my understanding after reading your post; you weren't there, and are reporting what you 'heard', or relaying hearsay. That could be how a myth is perpetuated.

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Then answer me this. If it was just you & your wife, how do we know that you aren't "perpetuating a myth" ? By your own words your test doesn't prove anything because no one else was there to see it. You seem to operate by a serious double standard that is what you do is fact & what anyone else does is a myth. Sorry but that just doesn't fly!

Furthermore, how do you know if anyone else was there with Dave or not? The FACT is that you don't! It's obvious by my post on FM that I wasn't there. You just made an uninformed, uneducated assumption that no one else was there didn't you? Sounds like you did it again when you said that you & your wife did all of your testing yourselves.......once again making the uninformed assumption that Dave did not do his own set up & testing. Yeah,, sure sounds like you like perpetuating myths to me.

Seems to me that if someone wanted to do a "head to head" comparison of tests, they would be talking to the first one that tested, & do a comparison using the exact same set up, not modify it, which regardless of how you explain it, you did modify it.

I guess the fact is that you have no "proof" to back up your claims either - Greg

Whew..

In Science, the results of experiments must be repeatable, before the results are accepted as true. Now, i know with no reservation, that anyone could repeat what we did yesterday, anywhere, anytime, and they would come up with the same result.

The two test performed by Ron and Dave were different. They were performed at different distances, and with different powder loads. They also could have been performed by different bullets if Federal made a change to the bullet.

I have no reason to doubt either test, and I believe that are both accurate as to what happened. They both showed pictures of the results too.

I'd like to add something else. When I talked to Federal I asked if they had tested the bullet at 200 yds since they give ballistics for that range. They also claim it has 200 yd performance on the packaging. I was surprised when they said they only tested at 100yds. So, they're guessing at the 200 yd ballistics by using the MV, and the bullet BC. I've never been a fan of trusting that, and prefer to shoot the 200yds to see how it performs. However, there are those that swear by ballistics charts.

So, what i'm saying it maybe it's not really doing 1358 fps at 200 yds. Then again Dave only used 110gr of BH, so for sure his bullet wasn't going that fast, but maybe even 120gr isn't either. One thing is for sure. Ron's bullet expanding nice at 1350fps, and Dave's didn't at whatever fps his bullet had. Is somewhere around 1300fps when the bullet stops expanding? At what fps does it stop expanding? We won't know until someone test that.

Muley Hunter said:

.......... Is somewhere around 1300fps when the bullet stops expanding? At what fps does it stop expanding? We won't know until someone test that.

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One would assume that Federal should be posting the answer to that question.