- Joined
- Dec 20, 2022
- Messages
- 460
- Reaction score
- 887
Just as Montana's Heritage Muzzy season opened on 9 December, I squeezed in two more shooting sessions. All bullets were Hornady Great Plains, sized to .501 and lubed with SPG-I (8 oz SPG + 1 oz ALOX + 2.6 oz Stihl Ultra HD 2-Cycle oil. All shooting was done over a solid bench at 50 yards. All velocities were measured with a Caldwell Ballistics chronograph. All powder was Triple - 7 which was purchased no earlier than December 2022, and was opened the previous week. Between all shots I swabbed with one patch that was moistened (not sloppy wet) with Hornady Muzzleloader One-Shot, followed by 2 dry patches. All caps were Dynamit Nobel 1075s. Here are the results:
Day 1, 9 December:
1. Five shots with 70 grs T7 - 3F, weighed (W), no wads. 4 shots went into a 2 1/2 inch circle, one was a flier that landed about 2 inches out. Velocities ranged from 1448 fps (2 shots) to 1575 (2 shots).
2. Five shots with 70 grs T7-2F W, no wads. Group size 1 1/2 inches, with the first three shots touching in a neat little clover leaf. Velocities ranged from 1379 to 1432.
Pretty clear that the T7-3F is producing some strange combustion dynamics in loads that are heavier than 60 grs W. At 50 yards accuracy was still sort of OK with the 3F, but with that big a range of velocities, accuracy would be very poor at ranges of 100 yards or greater. At this point, I decided to go with 2F for all future development.
3. 5 shots with 70 grs W of T7-2F, with a .54 dia, 1/8 thick lubricated wool wad between the bullet and powder. The wads were loaded according to the procedure in an Idaho Lewis video that can be seen here: Felt wad over powder. Velocities ranged from 1389 to 1425, with an average of 1402. Despite the slightly improved velocity consistency, group size blew up to 7 (!) inches, with 3 of the 5 shots landing on the periphery of the group.
Pretty clear that wads are NOT helpful with the concave based HGPs. This result is similar to the results of firing many HGPs, and quite a few Hornady PA conicals with wads last year, using both .54 wads and .50 wads. My thinking is that it's very difficult to get the wad perfectly centered on the bore of the rifle, and that one edge always ends up bearing more lightly on the concave rim of the bullet than the other edges. Upon firing, I'm guessing that the lightly bearing edge of the wad probably gets pushed into the concave base before the rest of the wad, leaving the wad in a cockeyed configuration as the bullet travels down the barrel. As a result, the concave base doesn't expand to engage the rifling in a uniform way, the bullet receives an asymetric push from the powder charge/wad, and the bullet ends up being out of round as it exits the barrel. If the some of the wads were cockeyed, I'm guessing that it's also likely that the powder gases which blow past a bullet as it exits the muzzle were giving the bullets some odd pushes as well.
4. 5 shots with 80grs W of T7-2F, no wads. Velocities 1496 to 1520, 1509 Average. Group size 2.5 inches. Excellent velocity consistency. Accuracy mediocre, but probably acceptable for hunting.
At the start of this group 15 shots had been fired from the rifle, with swabbing between shots, but no thorough cleaning. Also, the high temp for the day was 25 F, with a pretty good breeze, and I was very cold. I therefore decided to quit for the day, clean the Renegade thoroughly, and resume the following day.
Day 2, 10 December:
1. 5 Shots, 80 grs W T7-2F, no wads: Before firing the first shot, I forgot to fire a cap to clear the flash hole of cleaners and rust protectant (CLP). There was a perceptible delay between cap firing and powder detonation ( a "Snap-Bang" kind of effect), measured velocity was 1459, and the shot landed about 2 inches to the left of center. No perceptible delay in any following shots, velocities ranged from 1517 to 1530, and the 4 bullets went into a 2 1/8 inch group centered 1 inch above my point of aim. Despite the snap-bang on the first bullet, all five bullets went into a 2.5 inch circle.
2. 5 shots, 85 grs W T7-2F, no wads. Velocities 1527 to 1561, Avg. 1544. Group size 2 3/8 inches, centered 1 inch above point of aim. No leading was observed. This is the load I used for hunting.
Directions for future load developement:
At this point, it seems that I have a bullet and powder combination which loads easily, and produces velocities of 1544 +/- 17 fps with a 385 grain bullet. While 5 shot group sizes of 2 1/2 inches or slightly less are not nearly as tight as I would like, reality is that between my 66 year-old eyes, the limitations of peep sights designed for hunting, and the shooting positions that are possible while hunting elk and mule deer in the mostly-forested mountains of West-Central Montana (sitting with a monopod for support at the very best, and most typically sitting, kneeling, or off-hand) I am hard-pressed to shoot that accurately anyway. Furthermore, in the mostly-forested mountain country typical of our elk and mule deer hunting, shots at ranges longer than 125 yards are more the exception than the rule, so ability to keep all shots in a 6 inch circle at 125 yards should be adequate accuracy. The 385 grain HGPs have a G1 ballistic coefficient of 1.48, and Hornady's ballistic calculator tells me that with a velocity of 1540, their maximum point blank range is about 125 yards.
Nevertheless, I plan to keep seeking better performance from my hunting load - just for fun if nothing else. Here are some of the things I'm thinking about.
1. With my hunting sights (a Skinner peep mounted just forward of the barrel plug, and the Renegade's factory front sight), and my 66 year-old eyes, I suspect that my error of aim at 50 yards is probably around an inch and a half, and is therefore a major factor in the group sizes I'm getting. To do much better, I probably need to mount a telescope on the Renegade. TC used to sell a scope mount that attaches to the factory rear sight screw holes on the Renegade, so if I can find one of these mounts and a Scout scope to go with it, I can probably do load development with a telescope, without having to drill more holes in the Renegade, or having to remove the Skinner peep. Does anybody have experience with the TC mounts? Any other suggestions for mounting a scope on the Renegade?
2. I should probably run more tests with different loads of T7-2F. It's interesting that 85 grs W produced more consistent velocities at about the same accuracy as 80 grs W, so maybe I should also try 90 grs W of T7-2F.
3. I should try the HGPs with a half of a cotton ball for a wad, as several knowledgeable forum members have suggested.
4. I need to test my loads at 100 yards.
5. Ideally, I'd like to find a hunting bullet that weighs between 330 and 350 grs for higher velocity, is no more than .75 inches long for better stability, is made of 40-1 alloy for better penetration, has deeper lube grooves than the HGPs, has a flat meplat for improved shock effect, has a flat base so that it can be used with a wad, is a tight slip fit to my barrel from the base to the first lube groove to promote loading ease and straightness, and is then about .002 oversized so that it engages the rifling and stays on the powder while hunting under mountain conditions, but is still relatively easy to load. Altogether, this will require a custom mold and some excellent casting. I'm looking at designs from Accurate Molds.... Not sure that I want to get into bullet casting myself, but my recollection is that the Bullshop will do custom casting with a customer-supplied mold, so I will probably confirm with The Bullshop and start there if I decide to go this route.
6. I need to practice shooting the Renegade from typical hunting positions until I'm very proficient with it. To make that a little more comfortable and economical, I should develop an accurate practice load which uses a round ball, or maybe a Hornady PA conical. Lots of cottontails and squirrels in the mountains behind my house, and they are in-season year 'round here in MT... hunting squirrels and rabbits with the Renegade would be GREAT practice for hunting deer and elk! Little buggers are really cute, though, so I'd have to hunt and cook them a long ways from the house, and without telling Tina.
Day 1, 9 December:
1. Five shots with 70 grs T7 - 3F, weighed (W), no wads. 4 shots went into a 2 1/2 inch circle, one was a flier that landed about 2 inches out. Velocities ranged from 1448 fps (2 shots) to 1575 (2 shots).
2. Five shots with 70 grs T7-2F W, no wads. Group size 1 1/2 inches, with the first three shots touching in a neat little clover leaf. Velocities ranged from 1379 to 1432.
Pretty clear that the T7-3F is producing some strange combustion dynamics in loads that are heavier than 60 grs W. At 50 yards accuracy was still sort of OK with the 3F, but with that big a range of velocities, accuracy would be very poor at ranges of 100 yards or greater. At this point, I decided to go with 2F for all future development.
3. 5 shots with 70 grs W of T7-2F, with a .54 dia, 1/8 thick lubricated wool wad between the bullet and powder. The wads were loaded according to the procedure in an Idaho Lewis video that can be seen here: Felt wad over powder. Velocities ranged from 1389 to 1425, with an average of 1402. Despite the slightly improved velocity consistency, group size blew up to 7 (!) inches, with 3 of the 5 shots landing on the periphery of the group.
Pretty clear that wads are NOT helpful with the concave based HGPs. This result is similar to the results of firing many HGPs, and quite a few Hornady PA conicals with wads last year, using both .54 wads and .50 wads. My thinking is that it's very difficult to get the wad perfectly centered on the bore of the rifle, and that one edge always ends up bearing more lightly on the concave rim of the bullet than the other edges. Upon firing, I'm guessing that the lightly bearing edge of the wad probably gets pushed into the concave base before the rest of the wad, leaving the wad in a cockeyed configuration as the bullet travels down the barrel. As a result, the concave base doesn't expand to engage the rifling in a uniform way, the bullet receives an asymetric push from the powder charge/wad, and the bullet ends up being out of round as it exits the barrel. If the some of the wads were cockeyed, I'm guessing that it's also likely that the powder gases which blow past a bullet as it exits the muzzle were giving the bullets some odd pushes as well.
4. 5 shots with 80grs W of T7-2F, no wads. Velocities 1496 to 1520, 1509 Average. Group size 2.5 inches. Excellent velocity consistency. Accuracy mediocre, but probably acceptable for hunting.
At the start of this group 15 shots had been fired from the rifle, with swabbing between shots, but no thorough cleaning. Also, the high temp for the day was 25 F, with a pretty good breeze, and I was very cold. I therefore decided to quit for the day, clean the Renegade thoroughly, and resume the following day.
Day 2, 10 December:
1. 5 Shots, 80 grs W T7-2F, no wads: Before firing the first shot, I forgot to fire a cap to clear the flash hole of cleaners and rust protectant (CLP). There was a perceptible delay between cap firing and powder detonation ( a "Snap-Bang" kind of effect), measured velocity was 1459, and the shot landed about 2 inches to the left of center. No perceptible delay in any following shots, velocities ranged from 1517 to 1530, and the 4 bullets went into a 2 1/8 inch group centered 1 inch above my point of aim. Despite the snap-bang on the first bullet, all five bullets went into a 2.5 inch circle.
2. 5 shots, 85 grs W T7-2F, no wads. Velocities 1527 to 1561, Avg. 1544. Group size 2 3/8 inches, centered 1 inch above point of aim. No leading was observed. This is the load I used for hunting.
Directions for future load developement:
At this point, it seems that I have a bullet and powder combination which loads easily, and produces velocities of 1544 +/- 17 fps with a 385 grain bullet. While 5 shot group sizes of 2 1/2 inches or slightly less are not nearly as tight as I would like, reality is that between my 66 year-old eyes, the limitations of peep sights designed for hunting, and the shooting positions that are possible while hunting elk and mule deer in the mostly-forested mountains of West-Central Montana (sitting with a monopod for support at the very best, and most typically sitting, kneeling, or off-hand) I am hard-pressed to shoot that accurately anyway. Furthermore, in the mostly-forested mountain country typical of our elk and mule deer hunting, shots at ranges longer than 125 yards are more the exception than the rule, so ability to keep all shots in a 6 inch circle at 125 yards should be adequate accuracy. The 385 grain HGPs have a G1 ballistic coefficient of 1.48, and Hornady's ballistic calculator tells me that with a velocity of 1540, their maximum point blank range is about 125 yards.
Nevertheless, I plan to keep seeking better performance from my hunting load - just for fun if nothing else. Here are some of the things I'm thinking about.
1. With my hunting sights (a Skinner peep mounted just forward of the barrel plug, and the Renegade's factory front sight), and my 66 year-old eyes, I suspect that my error of aim at 50 yards is probably around an inch and a half, and is therefore a major factor in the group sizes I'm getting. To do much better, I probably need to mount a telescope on the Renegade. TC used to sell a scope mount that attaches to the factory rear sight screw holes on the Renegade, so if I can find one of these mounts and a Scout scope to go with it, I can probably do load development with a telescope, without having to drill more holes in the Renegade, or having to remove the Skinner peep. Does anybody have experience with the TC mounts? Any other suggestions for mounting a scope on the Renegade?
2. I should probably run more tests with different loads of T7-2F. It's interesting that 85 grs W produced more consistent velocities at about the same accuracy as 80 grs W, so maybe I should also try 90 grs W of T7-2F.
3. I should try the HGPs with a half of a cotton ball for a wad, as several knowledgeable forum members have suggested.
4. I need to test my loads at 100 yards.
5. Ideally, I'd like to find a hunting bullet that weighs between 330 and 350 grs for higher velocity, is no more than .75 inches long for better stability, is made of 40-1 alloy for better penetration, has deeper lube grooves than the HGPs, has a flat meplat for improved shock effect, has a flat base so that it can be used with a wad, is a tight slip fit to my barrel from the base to the first lube groove to promote loading ease and straightness, and is then about .002 oversized so that it engages the rifling and stays on the powder while hunting under mountain conditions, but is still relatively easy to load. Altogether, this will require a custom mold and some excellent casting. I'm looking at designs from Accurate Molds.... Not sure that I want to get into bullet casting myself, but my recollection is that the Bullshop will do custom casting with a customer-supplied mold, so I will probably confirm with The Bullshop and start there if I decide to go this route.
6. I need to practice shooting the Renegade from typical hunting positions until I'm very proficient with it. To make that a little more comfortable and economical, I should develop an accurate practice load which uses a round ball, or maybe a Hornady PA conical. Lots of cottontails and squirrels in the mountains behind my house, and they are in-season year 'round here in MT... hunting squirrels and rabbits with the Renegade would be GREAT practice for hunting deer and elk! Little buggers are really cute, though, so I'd have to hunt and cook them a long ways from the house, and without telling Tina.
Last edited:
