Load Testing Methodology Help

[Bratch]

I am ready for another range trip after my last one didn’t work out as well as I hoped

https://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/threads/groups-opening-on-third-shot.59214/
I have changed about everything from that trip: new scope and the correct mount, loose 777 FFFG, 777 209 primers and a very thorough cleaning.

Here is where I am trying to decide how I want to proceed. Over the past year or two I have collected a decent collection of bullets: BoreLok, Bore Driver, 240/300gr .430 XTP, 300gr .452 XTP, ELD-X and more. I’d love to be able to shoot XTPs but ultimately want the most accurate combo I can find.

My question is would you recommend I shoot a variety of bullets with a single 100gr load and see what’s the most accurate or would you do 80-110 gr ladder with the 240 and 300 XTP and hope one of them works out? I’ll probably only have time for 15-20 shots so 5-7 3 round groups to get an idea.

This is a hunting rifle only, I’d like to get to 200 yards with it for next season.

 

[ElDiablo]

I’d pick the bullet you’d like to end up using and shoot three-shot groups with a range of charges. I’d probably start with 110 grV or so and work down in 5 gr increments if it were me. I’d swab between shots and I’d definitely knurl the bullets you use with sabots.

 

[MrTom]

I'm with Eldiablo, here, you have a lot on your plate. If you do three shot groups I'd suggest maybe the 240 and 300 grain XTP with maybe three charge levels one visit to the range, then another couple bullets of a different brand with the same charge levels on the next visit. You get the idea here....narrow things down so you're not going to shoot yourself out or get overwhelmed with details. You've got a pile of bullets mentioned there and I think you'll do yourself a favor by tackling a couple at a time with maybe three or four charge levels.

I will add that you have a nice agenda as far as bullets goes and that will lead you to a good outcome. I'd keep the bore to bullet and sabots/bullets separate in your testing. Be sure to take a notebook and catalog all your shooting results in detail so you have something to go back to, to work out what is best for you.

I'll ask what your intentions are with this.... are you planning to just poke paper or are you going afield with the outcome? If you plan to hunt are you planning a hunt where bore to bullet or sabot/bullet matters legally, what are you going to hunt [elk, deer, antelope]? If you know ahead of time what restrictions you have to follow you can probably skip areas or bullets/charges that don't pertain to your goals.

Good luck out there and let us know how your sessions go.

 

[Bratch]

I'll ask what your intentions are with this.... are you planning to just poke paper or are you going afield with the outcome? If you plan to hunt are you planning a hunt where bore to bullet or sabot/bullet matters legally, what are you going to hunt [elk, deer, antelope]?

This will be a whitetail rifle, I plan to use it on a couple WMAs where centerfire rifles are prohibited.

We have no restrictions other than greater than .40 caliber.

 

[MrTom]

What sort of distances are you talking here? 50 yards? 150 yards? If you stay inside of 150 yards and can use sabots, those XTP's in the 240 to 300 grain range are deer slayers with sabots and charge levels in the 100 to 110 grain by volume level of T7 granular powder.

I hunt BH209 powder but if I had to I could load with T7 fffg and hunt with every confidence I have with the BH and do so with either of those XTP bullets..

I'll assume, based on the range of bullet sizes you've mentioned, that you have a .50 caliber rifle. You won't gain a thing by looking at or using any bullet in the .40 caliber size range.

What state are you in? Just curious because we here in Minnesota can use down to .40 cal bullets. I have an in-line .45 that I use a .40 cal bullet in with a sabot, along with a .45 cal smokeless that uses .40 cal bullets in sabots.

 

[Bratch]

I’ll be doing initial sight in at 100 but would like to get a load that is usable to 200 yards. If the XTPs excel in the rifle I could put a 150 yard limit on myself.

It is a .50 cal, I’m not planning to go any smaller than the .430 XTP in it.

I’m in Oklahoma. I’ve been looking at .45s as a second option especially if I can’t get this one figured out ( to be fair I’m also eyeballing the .52 DE on sale right now).

 

[MrTom]

If you check out the Barnes website right now you'll find .451 250 grain XPBs that will shoot out of a black sabot really nice at the charge levels you've indicated. There's also a .451 225 grain XPB that will hum right along very accurately at the charge levels you've mentioned. I shoot hunt both weights of this bullet, the 250 grain, .451 bullet in my Accura v2 and the 429 version of the 225 grain pill in an Optima pistol, with huge successes. These might also be added to your test bullets and either of these will kill deer smartly at 200 yards with a 100 grain [v] charge of T7.

 

[michiganmuzzy]

Agreed, ladder test with the bullets you want to hunt with first. I would start at 90, not 80 tho, since one of your goals is 200yds. 90-110, 3 shot groups. I am biased toward the XTP, my goto hunting bullets, currently. Cheap, accurate, effective.

 

[LHR]

If it were me I would start with the 300 grain XTP in black crushrib sabot. Load 100 grains loose, BH209 preferred but 777 shoots very close.
Every rifle I've tried that combo in has shot very well.

If using 777 I'd run a spit patch down twice between shots to maintain accuracy. Do Not do that with BH209, just load and shoot.

Start there and then tweak your charge up or down as needed. The BC on that bullet is poor and wind deflection is a real problem but 200 yards is certainly workable.

 

[Bratch]

I got to the range this afternoon for testing. Weather was perfect 65* with 5-10 mph winds.

I was shooting 777 FFFG weighed for 90/100/110 grain by volume. My powder weighed 85 gr for 100 gr volume, it was heavier than I expected but I weighed close to 10 charges out of 4 measures and all were at 85 grains.

Bullets were .430 240 gr XTP in a green crush rib and a .452 300 gr XTP in a black crush rib. I also shot a group with .430 300 gr XTP in green crush rib with 2 white hot pellets.

All shots were at 100 yards off of a bipod and rear bunny ear bag.

Groups were 3 shots to get a baseline of loads and measured edge to edge.

Results:

240 gr
90 gr 2.03”
100 gr 2.60”
110 gr 3.73”

300gr
90 gr 2.58”
100 gr 1.93”
110 gr 4.09”

.430 300gr with White Hots 2.72”

Rifle clearly does not like 110gr charges with the XTPs.

I think my next trip will be to try out bullet to bore with ELD-X, BoreLok and Bore Driver, but if pressed I would feel good at 100-150 yards with a couple of the loads from today.

 

[ElDiablo]

Did you knurl the bullets? And, did you swab between shots? Personally, I wouldn’t waste any time with the green sabots and .429” bullets. More often than not, a .45 bullet will shoot better than a .429 bullet in a .50 (thinner sabot petals gives you a cleaner release of the bullet). You might try 2F instead of 3F 777. [I was shooting a .410 this past weekend and (surprisingly for that small caliber) the groups tightened up when I went from 3F to 2F.] In a .50 most guys use 2F.

 

[Bratch]

Did you knurl the bullets? And, did you swab between shots? Personally, I wouldn’t waste any time with the green sabots and .429” bullets. More often than not, a .45 bullet will shoot better than a .429 bullet in a .50 (thinner sabot petals gives you a cleaner release of the bullet). You might try 2F instead of 3F 777. [I was shooting a .410 this past weekend and (surprisingly for that small caliber) the groups tightened up when I went from 3F to 2F.] In a .50 most guys use 2F.

I did not knurl the bullets.

I did swab with an alcohol misted patch and then a dry patch after every shot and then gave it a few extra minutes to cool after every 3 round group.

I’ll grab a bottle of FF to test next. I do have 4# of Pyrodex RS I haven't shot yet.

 

[ElDiablo]

Knurling almost always helps - sometimes a lot.

 

[Mnt monkey]

Get one can of black horn get some Fury 250 either star tip or black tip load 70 grains by weight after your gun shoots a half inch three shot group put the Black Horn back up and admire it go back to shooting Triple 7 around the same weight once you find that sweet spot whatever that weighed charges check the volume and go back to pouring by volume if that's what you want I would bet your rifle that the 70 grains by weight and the black horn and the fury shoot less than an inch

 

[Patched]

Following…

 

[LHR]

Guys I’m a bit perplexed here and am hoping you guys have some ideas. I am new to muzzleloaders but not new to rifles.

I am shooting an old pre 2009 CVA Optima with a Nikon 3-9.

Primers are coming out blackened so I’m probably getting some blowback and the action was sticky a couple times until I went to half cock after shooting. I’m not noticing any gases in my face while shooting.

Bratch,

I went back and looked at your original post about this rifle in the other thread, and I can't help but think this could be your problem.
Do you know how many shots fired on this breech plug? I'm not familiar with the Optima but the Accura's have a bushing system to sort of set your headspace on the primer. Have you looked into doing that.

The reason I would look here is I had a similar issue with my daughter's Buckstalker, when getting blow by with a different primer the rifle went from a known good shooting load to 3" groups. Once we fixed the blow by problem the groups came right back to sub moa!

If your rifle has seen a lot of Blackhorn 209 especially, the flash channel and orifice may have opened up causing your half cock situation? From what I have seen BH209 can cut a plug in short order.

 

[Bratch]

Bratch,

I went back and looked at your original post about this rifle in the other thread, and I can't help but think this could be your problem.
Do you know how many shots fired on this breech plug? I'm not familiar with the Optima but the Accura's have a bushing system to sort of set your headspace on the primer. Have you looked into doing that.

The reason I would look here is I had a similar issue with my daughter's Buckstalker, when getting blow by with a different primer the rifle went from a known good shooting load to 3" groups. Once we fixed the blow by problem the groups came right back to sub moa!

If your rifle has seen a lot of Blackhorn 209 especially, the flash channel and orifice may have opened up causing your half cock situation? From what I have seen BH209 can cut a plug in short order.

I’m about 95% it was a new plug, about 10 shots on it from my initial 10 shot sight in. When I bought the rifle a couple years ago it was a little neglected so I replaced the consumables and put in a new breech plug and firing pin.

I have not seen shims for the plug but did order the orings everyone was using in the primer pocket for better seal. I couldn’t get the rifle to close with the oring in the pocket so I’ll have to work on that some more.

If I was betting this rifle has never seen BH209, I bought it from a guy after his father passed and it came with a few old pellets in speed loaders that his dad hunted with.

For this range trip I put in my @ronlaughlin BH209 plug so I am positive that it was brand new.