Sabots Vs Minie Balls (or round ball)

[Solomoriah]

I have a Knight LK-93 I got off Gunbroker, All I knew about it for sure is that it was a .54.

I had it at the range today and out of a dozen minie ball shots I got two keyholes and everything else missed the paper. After spending the morning reading all I can find about this gun I do not see anyone firing regular shot out of it - everyone is firing Sabots. Is that all this thing can do?

 

[smokepolehall]

All i can do is offer common advice. Going with your twist rate, hoping you know that. I don't think your rifle was intended to shoot minie balls at all. I doubt it was built to use anything but sabots or maybe long conicals. I would say sabots with 250 gr bullets up to 300gr would be what you would need to start with.

 

[Jitterbug]

Very general advice shared with me, for round ball in a fast twist barrel:

“Load ‘em light, and patch ‘em tight!“
(i.e., light powder charge and a tight-fitting patch)

 

[Solomoriah]

Well I do have a round ball mold. What would you consider to be a light charge? I was using 5 Gram (77 Grains) today. Round ball seemed to be doing better than the Minie ball that was keyholing at 10 yards. And I thought the whole idea of the minie ball design was that it was supposed to go straight even if it wasn't spinning.

If this thing can't shoot straight with ANY cast lead then its junk. Explains why it was $75 on gunbroker.

 

[Jasonb1911]

Those rifles have a fast 1:28 twist designed for sabots. With a twist rate that fast it should stabilize a longer heavier bullet like the No Excuses bullets. They work well with my CVA 54 caliber rifle that has a 1:32 twist rate. Hollow base Minie Balls are too soft and are skipping the rifling so they can't stabilize. You might be able to get them to work if you back the power down to about 50 grains by volume (you don't say what kind of powder you are using). Minie Balls also tend to blow out the skirts if the powder charge is too heavy.

https://www.muzzleloading-bullets.com/product/54-caliber-525-grains/

 

[earlwb]

Yes as mentioned it depends on the rifling twist rate in the barrel. A slow twist is for round balls. A fast twist is for conicals. But the weight of the bullet still depends on the twist rate too. A intermediate twist would use lighter bullets best versus a faster twist rate for even longer heavier bullets.

But as mentioned already you can get balls to work fairly well with fast twist barrels using a lighter load of powder. Similar things with heavier bullets or minies too. But you might have to experiment with the powder loads needed.

 

[Solomoriah]

Those rifles have a fast 1:28 twist designed for sabots. With a twist rate that fast it should stabilize a longer heavier bullet like the No Excuses bullets. They work well with my CVA 54 caliber rifle that has a 1:32 twist rate. Hollow base Minie Balls are too soft and are skipping the rifling so they can't stabilize. You might be able to get them to work if you back the power down to about 50 grains by volume (you don't say what kind of powder you are using). Minie Balls also tend to blow out the skirts if the powder charge is too heavy.

https://www.muzzleloading-bullets.com/product/54-caliber-525-grains/

My own Black Powder - at this point I have gotten to where it is equal or better than commercial stuff. I'll try loading it like a pistol next time. Maybe 30 grains. I 'll settle for an accurate BB gun, I'm just shooting at paper and steel targets. I wonder how far I can back it off before I have to worry about squibs.

If I can cast those 525 grain bullets myself I will use those - but I cannot find a mold that large. I have the R.E.A.L. .54 inbound but don't have it yet - I think thats 410 grain. At this point I'm not overly hopeful that it will work.

 

[snapbang]

Got to think that no excuses 525 grain will work fine. 75-85 grains by volume of powder with a wad and you should be on paper and start adjusting for accuracy. If not send me a PM. I need a project this winter.

 

[Jasonb1911]

My own Black Powder - at this point I have gotten to where it is equal or better than commercial stuff. I'll try loading it like a pistol next time. Maybe 30 grains. I 'll settle for an accurate BB gun, I'm just shooting at paper and steel targets. I wonder how far I can back it off before I have to worry about squibs.

If I can cast those 525 grain bullets myself I will use those - but I cannot find a mold that large. I have the R.E.A.L. .54 inbound but don't have it yet - I think thats 410 grain. At this point I'm not overly hopeful that it will work.

Try Accurate Moulds. They have pretty much anything or they can modify one to make what you want.

https://www.accuratemolds.com/catalog.php?page=30#catalog-anchor

 

[primer mark]

I have a 54 cal. LK 93.I shoot a 310gr. Buffalo ball-et/ 90gr's. of T7 2f ( by volume ).That's whats she likes! I fond that sabots were hard to load and inaccurate.you I'm sure you already know with any gun you just have to play around with different loads,bullets,powder(s)charges,caps/primers etc..that's part of the fun of muzzle loading.you may have to put in some time and some $'s before ya get it right.It was inexpensive because it's a 54 cal..50 cal's are the Favor of the month!don't give up on it.

 

[Solomoriah]

Cap & Ball just posted a formula of bullet diameter X twist X 2 = correct powder charge.

.54 X 28 X 2 = 30 grains.

I was using 60-70 grains, which in the case of round ball was making it strip off the rifling leaving me with a musket (though a surprisingly good one actually) and the minie balls were actually engaging the rifling, but having the thin skirt actually blow off the bullet as it left the muzzle, with the resulting bizarre shaped projectile tumbling immediately and keyholding at 10 yards.

The civil war load in a .58 was 60 grains of powder behind a 500 grain minnie, but the twist was 1:72

.58 X 72 X 2 = 84 grains. So that's why theirs worked - and mine did not.

 

[brad502a]

Lyman makes a "magnum" minnie ball mold with thicker skirts for a heavier charge in 58 caliber, they may make one in 54, IDK. There is always the plains bullet.

 

[Solomoriah]

Lyman makes a "magnum" minnie ball mold with thicker skirts for a heavier charge in 58 caliber, they may make one in 54, IDK. There is always the plains bullet.

I have since been told - from the same source - that the R.E.A.L. bullets can handle a full powder charge. I cast a bunch yesterday afternoon but have not used them yet. So Someone with an inline rifle can in fact load and shoot traditional ammunition. Just remember two things:

Use the formula to determine the maximum powder charge you can use with a ball / Minie Ball. Better yet cast your own and only use the R.E.A.L. bullets, where you can use the same powder load you are used to and it will work.

Also something obvious to most of you but I learned on my own: Do not mix powder with sulfur and Lube with Petroleum. It makes Tar, and a lot of it quickly. Most of you are using Pyrodex and this will never be an issue. I even tested this: I had made up a bunch of lube with Crisco mixed with wax from Home Depot toilet seat rings. Used with BP the rifle was unusable after a dozen shots. Tested it the next weekend with pyrodex and got 50 shots no problem.

I can see where using BP and petro lube on cartridge guns could kill you as you won't know the tar is building up until the gun explodes. With an ML you are at least safe as you won't be able to make the bullet go in, which is what happened to me.