Another ML accident

Got a text this evening that said: Search "graphic Virginia muzzleloading accident"
First post that came up is dated Dec. 29, 2016 by WideOpenSpaces; curiosity got me as I didn't think it was going to be good.

uke: Man that's awful! Poor guy.

03mossy said:

uke: Man that's awful! Poor guy.

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My thought exactly. Wow. uke: uke:

I know its not the gun.... but man, so many of the accidents I've seen seem to be w Savage. Is it bc they shoot smokeless and mistakes are much easier to make?

That is an old article from 2007

Not because savage but because it's smokeless. A double load with a BP sub and it's slow burn rate limits how much pressure can be made. I don't know of a single Sub gun that has come apart aside from the crappy CVA's made during 90's. Savage was only(big gun) maker of smokeless MZ's so most accidents will be from them statistically speaking. The quick burning and therefore high pressure nature of smokeless powders are simply unforgiving of mistakes in details and that 1 psi more than it can take(which is usually a pretty good buffer for book loads)is all it takes. ...
Smokeless MZ's are not for everyone....If you are not a "details" person then you should stick with BP Sub guns for your own safety as well as others with you.

There were plenty of CVAs that came apart after the recall rifles. Its not hard to find TCs and other brands that came apart from a double load or user error either.

This took me under 10 seconds to find and its on video.
[youtube]GCe2B2pN3pQ[/youtube]

:shock: I have dry loaded one time, but never shot the ramrod. I use a range rod and not the guns rod for loading. It's easy to get distracted at the range with other folks shooting, just have to pay attention!!

Why do people think they have to slam the ramrod down several times? I was taught that too the first time I went out with the Renegade, but soon learned its not needed and deforms the bullet...

samson105 said:

That is an old article from 2007

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I hope you are correct. I searched the net for those same photos posted elsewhere and a possible date, to no avail. Makes one wonder why WideOpenSpaces would have written an article 10 years later?
Do you have any further specifics?

Greetings from South Africa.....I have a little first hand experience with blown up muzzleloaders.....we are a boutique manufacturer based in South Africa that make big bore sporting rifles and muzzleloaders (including a .32 in-line). When our laws changed and firearm licenses were very restricted we sold many in-lines and we explored the smokeless avenue only to abandon it.

What we found was that most nitro inlines seem to replicate a .44 magnum load (a good hunting load) and as you say this is all good and well IF YOU PAY ATTENTION as the pressures and VERY different with nitro as opposed to black powder.

As part of our tests we tried to replicate possible faults including double charges, two bullets, heavier bullets, etc. The most dangerous thing we found was using to heavier a bullet ....cast lead bullets are very popular here and sabots using light pistol bullets are costly.....if you use your typical .44 magnum nitro powder charge but use a 535 gr cast lead bullet (or double sabot bullet) in say a .50 muzzleloader you end up with around a 240% overload which typically ends up in a blown up muzzleloader.


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CraigK said:

Greetings from South Africa.....I have a little first hand experience with blown up muzzleloaders.....we are a boutique manufacturer based in South Africa that make big bore sporting rifles and muzzleloaders (including a .32 in-line).

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Would you care to go into detail about the inline .32 !! Perhaps a website with prices,stocks, etc. Thanks!!

I will put together some info for you


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CraigK: Welcome.
You BP situation is much different/strict than ours here in the states. We have many choices.. You are also correct that nitro (we say smokeless) is less forgiving.
As for cast bullets, the opposite of popularity here in the states (with in-lines) as many are rich and can afford costly purchased bullets. Joking aside, heavy cast bullets shot in in-lines are not the norm. Nitro (smokeless ML) are not in favor of heavy bullets either as they are after Velocity to simulate that of a high power cartridge load - because they can't get it with BP and BP substitutes.
As for accidents: Human error in most cases, but it might be a good thing people over here are not using heavy bullets in their nitro in-lines as we might see more accidents from the experiences you've tested.

FYI
Unfortunate, but it is a confirmed accident from the VA DGIF.
"Incident occurred 11/11/16 in Bath county. The victim was using a Savage ML apparently designed for smokeless powder. He owned the rifle for 15 years and used the same load. He's unclear if there was a air gap behind the powerbelt bullet or loaded a second charge on top of a charge that may have been left in the barrel from the year before. When he fired at a coyote, the rifle blew up and severely damaged his right hand."

This makes 2 years in a row, that I know of as a long time Savage owner (5+ years and owner of 2 rifles) from Tennessee had a similar accident with one in 2015, who did loose his left hand.

Please be safe!!!

This is one resin way I store my MZ with the breech plug out so you can see if its loaded or not you have to clean the oil out anyway before you shoot it. for double loads you just have to watch what your doing and not let someone walk up and start talking to you and lose what your doing.

He's unclear if there was a air gap behind the powerbelt bullet or loaded a second charge on top of a charge that may have been left in the barrel from the year before

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Evidently he wasn't clear on the fact that you are not supposed to use a Powerbelt with smokeless too. Its right in the manual. Sabots only with smokeless but atm we dont even know if he actually used smokeless or if it was one of the approved/tested powders.

Page 13 in the note right under smokeless load data
https://s3.amazonaws.com/savagefiles/ma ... 10mlii.pdf

a1smokepole said:

This is one resin way I store my MZ with the breech plug out so you can see if its loaded or not you have to clean the oil out anyway before you shoot it. for double loads you just have to watch what your doing and not let someone walk up and start talking to you and lose what your doing.

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Is there ANYONE here that doesn't drop the ramrod or loading rod down the barrel before starting the range session????

I hold the gun up towards the Sun and make sure I can see the light through the flash hole. It's kept me from losing any fingers all these years.

How bout marking ramrod?

bestill said:

How bout matking ramrod?

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I do that also but was just saying I like seeing the light after pulling one out of the safe as a double check.

Methinks i have accounts of all the sensational Savage smokeless muzzleloader blowups. i googled up "graphic Virginia muzzleloading accident": Have seen those pictures before.

Used to blow up stuff for a living and did a lot of pipe bomb experiments with black and smokeless powder. Every photo of a "blown up" Savage rifle i have seen is consistent with an overload or a failure to properly seat the bullet/sabot on the powder.

IMO: Attention to detail and proper use of the ramrod would have prevented all the Savage muzzleloader blowups.