.429-430 vs .452 XTP's?????

[Highoctane]

I know this has been hashed over numerous times. I am also not looking for debate on which is better. Both are good bullets from my experience.

My issue is this. I went to the range a few days ago to sight in my CVA Optima V2 LR, rifle is new, and accuracy was not good. 3-4 inches and some worse. The scope is a "proven" Vortex Diamondback..

I'm using BH 209, have both Fed 209A and CCI-M primers. I'm also using Harvester 50x45, (H15045BR) sabots with .452 XTP 300 gr bullets, (non-mag).

I tried 90 gr's, (volume) as well as 95 gr. Nothing changed with groups. Sabots are loading good and snug all the way "home". Ignition seems good, however I am getting some "blow back" from the primer, (both brands) around the firing pin area.

I know sabots can and will make a difference in how a ML shoots. The 300 gr XTP bullet sits real deep in the Harvester sabot Im using. Just barely can see the nose.

Do you think it's possible that accuracy would get better if I shorten the sabot petals to just barely sit under the ogive of the bullet? Just barely covering the bearing surface??

Could it be that this ML doesn't like this .452, 300 gr bullet. I shot them years ago in other ML's and everything was good. Same harvester sabot, except it was the standard black..(H5045LB)

Maybe the .429-430 bullets could help?????????

 

[MrTom]

Nobody can answer what is best for you and your gun. You need to shoot these to find out what will perform the best for you. In all of my .50 cals, all CVA by the way, the .44 cal goodies shoot best for me, but the .452 bullets of the same weight all drop right in line with the .44 stuff, just a little looser at 100 yards. I'm taking about 3/8" in group size different. If I have to I can load the same charge as my .44 bullets/sabots take but use a .45 cal bullet/sabot instead and feel perfectly confident that things will get done inside the 100 yards.

Go shoot some bullet/sabot combos using different charges to see where the accuracy is at.

 

[Highoctane]

Nobody can answer what is best for you and your gun. You need to shoot these to find out what will perform the best for you. In all of my .50 cals, all CVA by the way, the .44 cal goodies shoot best for me, but the .452 bullets of the same weight all drop right in line with the .44 stuff, just a little looser at 100 yards. I'm taking about 3/8" in group size different. If I have to I can load the same charge as my .44 bullets/sabots take but use a .45 cal bullet/sabot instead and feel perfectly confident that things will get done inside the 100 yards.

Go shoot some bullet/sabot combos using different charges to see where the accuracy is at.

I wasn't looking for anyone to answer what is best for my gun. Just looking for those that have tried different caliber bullets and sabots in like rifles and their experience with such. Looking for trends you could say....

What sabots were you using with the 44 cal stuff?

 

[HC]

My hunting partner has an accura v2. His best load is win 209,harvester crush rib (green), hornday .430 , 300 xtp, 110 volume BH209. On a good day it groups 1 1/2”. Good luck.

 

[sabinajiles]

I doubt going to the .429 XTP would make that much difference. I would up the BH209 to at least 100-110 gr. I have also generally had better results with the Harvester short, smooth black sabot over the crush rib in 3 different CVA rifles, including an Optima.

 

[WPrather]

I have a Optima V2 that my son uses now. It hates 100grs of 777 and loves 150grs. I shoot the Hornady 250gr SST’s and with a 150grs of 777 it will shoot 3 shot about a inch at 100yds. With a 100grs it’s double that big. So I would try bumping up the powder and see if it helps.

It’s been along time since I shot the regular XTP’s. But when I did the .452’s always shot better than the .429’s did. I think it was because the sabot was thinner but maybe not. The sabots I shot the XTP’s out of where the long black ones the same as your useing I believe.

 

[MrTom]

I wasn't looking for anyone to answer what is best for my gun. Just looking for those that have tried different caliber bullets and sabots in like rifles and their experience with such. Looking for trends you could say....

What sabots were you using with the 44 cal stuff?

I use green crush ribs in the long guns with .429/430 cal 300 grain XTPs and a plain green in my Optima pistol with a .429/.430 240 grain XTP.

 

[Jackalope]

In my Omega, I shot the 300 gr .452 Speer Deep Curls with the harvester black crush rib sabots with really good accuracy. I as well tried the Speer 270gr .429 Deep Curls in the green smooth sided sabots with no accuracy change between the .452's and the .429's. both with 110gr Pyro P.

 

[sabinajiles]

I wasn't looking for anyone to answer what is best for my gun. Just looking for those that have tried different caliber bullets and sabots in like rifles and their experience with such. Looking for trends you could say....

What sabots were you using with the 44 cal stuff?

You can't really use sabot recommendations from those using other rifles because of differences in bore diameter. Even among barrels of the same rifle there may be differences, although those differences do not seem to be as large as some years ago.
TC barrels run tight compared to CVA barrels. Crush rib sabots generally do seem to be a great choice for TC barrels because of this but IME, they generally aren't the best choice for CVA rifles. I had 3 different CVA rifles, an Accura V2, Accura MR and Optima V2 and all of them shot the .452 300 gr XTP very well with 110 gr of BH209 in the Harvester short, smooth black sabot(H5045SB).


They also shot the .430 300 XTP just as well with 110 gr BH209 and the Harvester smooth green sabot(H5044G)


They would not group as well with the crush rib sabots with either bullet. They all generally really seemed to prefer a snug fitting sabot over the less snug crush rib with any bullet used.

 

[Highoctane]

You can't really use sabot recommendations from those using other rifles because of differences in bore diameter. Even among barrels of the same rifle there may be differences, although those differences do not seem to be as large as some years ago.
TC barrels run tight compared to CVA barrels. Crush rib sabots generally do seem to be a great choice for TC barrels because of this but IME, they generally aren't the best choice for CVA rifles. I had 3 different CVA rifles, an Accura V2, Accura MR and Optima V2 and all of them shot the .452 300 gr XTP very well with 110 gr of BH209 in the Harvester short, smooth black sabot(H5045SB).
View attachment 3704

They also shot the .430 300 XTP just as well with 110 gr BH209 and the Harvester smooth green sabot(H5044G)
View attachment 3703

They would not group as well with the crush rib sabots with either bullet. They all generally really seemed to prefer a snug fitting sabot over the less snug crush rib with any bullet used.

I understand the different bore diameters between manufacturers. As noted, I was looking for trends out of rifles with different sabots, not load recommendations per se!

Your "post" is the kind of information I'm looking for!!! Thanks!!

 

[ourway77]

For the most part I liked .452 over .429 especially when using sabots in my 50 Caliber

 

[Chris W.]

As already mentioned, try a few different brand sabots. You'd be surprised how something as simple as changing out the sabot with a different brand can affect things. My CVA Optima V2 rifle likes MMP sabots but shoots very different with Harvester crushed rib sabots and the same bullet. My CVA V2 pistol, on the other hand, will shoot lights out using the Harvester crushed rib sabots. Go figure.

" Ignition seems good, however I am getting some "blow back" from the primer, (both brands) around the firing pin area."
Order you some of these O rings for your primer pocket: https://www.mcmaster.com/9262k611 It'll seal things up and prevent blow back onto the breach face. I change it out about every 10 shots.

 

[GM54-120]

Or you could go for the permanent fix and get the shim kit. More of the primer IN the primer pocket than less sounds like a far better solution to me.
https://www.mbsportinggoods.com/cva-gun-parts.html

Its not hard to remove the bushing. Just take care when it comes out so you dont lose any parts. Measure primers before and after closing the action on them. Add shims until you got a .003 crush on the primers you want to use. Thats it unless you change primers. Then you need to do it all over again. Just be aware that if you set it up for a CCI209M or Fed209A and then try a Win209, it will be dangerously tight and may fire the Win209 when closing the action.

Or you can simply start with a NSI 209 (Nobel) or the Win209 and it wont ever be too tight with other primers.

 

[Highoctane]

Or you could go for the permanent fix and get the shim kit. More of the primer IN the primer pocket than less sounds like a far better solution to me.
https://www.mbsportinggoods.com/cva-gun-parts.html

Its not hard to remove the bushing. Just take care when it comes out so you dont lose any parts. Measure primers before and after closing the action on them. Add shims until you got a .003 crush on the primers you want to use. Thats it unless you change primers. Then you need to do it all over again. Just be aware that if you set it up for a CCI209M or Fed209A and then try a Win209, it will be dangerously tight and may fire the Win209 when closing the action.

Or you can simply start with a NSI 209 (Nobel) or the Win209 and it wont ever be too tight with other primers.

I called CVA yesterday about the shim kit and they have not returned my call. I'll try again tomorrow

 

[sabinajiles]

As already mentioned, try a few different brand sabots. You'd be surprised how something as simple as changing out the sabot with a different brand can affect things.

I believe one of the best things someone can do to improve accuracy and tighten groups is to take the time to match up a chosen bullet with the right sabot. Many don't take the time to do this and just buy prepackaged bullet/sabot combinations off the shelf and many times that may not be the best combination for a particular rifle. IME, almost every good bullet available can be loaded to shoot pretty well if its matched with the proper sabot although some bullets will stand out. Yes, powder will make a difference and yes, you have to buy different sabots and put in some more range time to see what works best but if you are serious about getting the best performance you can from your rifle, it is worth it.

 

[sabinajiles]

Or you could go for the permanent fix and get the shim kit. More of the primer IN the primer pocket than less sounds like a far better solution to me.

I agree completely. I used to use the o-rings because I was just too lazy to shim the firing pin bushing but after I finally got motivated and shimmed all 3 CVA rifles I had at the time, I was certainly glad I did. It is easy to do. You do it once and never have to worry about an o-ring again.
There is an issue when using the o-ring that no one has mentioned and that is when a new o-ring is installed, the rifle will not lock up when you close it unless you use dome force to kind of slam it shut. It eventually gets easier as the o-ring gets compressed but the problem, beside the extra noise from slamming the action shut, is that some times the action will lock up but the hammer will not lock back when you try to cock it because the action hasn't shut tight enough. This is not what you want to happen when you go to cock the hammer on a deer or other game. Shim the bushing and you never have to worry about this either.

 

[Chris W.]

Or you could go for the permanent fix and get the shim kit. More of the primer IN the primer pocket than less sounds like a far better solution to me.
https://www.mbsportinggoods.com/cva-gun-parts.html

Its not hard to remove the bushing. Just take care when it comes out so you dont lose any parts. Measure primers before and after closing the action on them. Add shims until you got a .003 crush on the primers you want to use. Thats it unless you change primers. Then you need to do it all over again. Just be aware that if you set it up for a CCI209M or Fed209A and then try a Win209, it will be dangerously tight and may fire the Win209 when closing the action.

Or you can simply start with a NSI 209 (Nobel) or the Win209 and it wont ever be too tight with other primers.

The shim kit is also an option. I started using the O rings and just never bothered with the shim kit. Have never had an issue with either of my CVAs locking up but I can see it as a possibility with a different rifle

 

[Far Sighted]

I know this has been hashed over numerous times. I am also not looking for debate on which is better. Both are good bullets from my experience.

My issue is this. I went to the range a few days ago to sight in my CVA Optima V2 LR, rifle is new, and accuracy was not good. 3-4 inches and some worse. The scope is a "proven" Vortex Diamondback..

I'm using BH 209, have both Fed 209A and CCI-M primers. I'm also using Harvester 50x45, (H15045BR) sabots with .452 XTP 300 gr bullets, (non-mag).

I tried 90 gr's, (volume) as well as 95 gr. Nothing changed with groups. Sabots are loading good and snug all the way "home". Ignition seems good, however I am getting some "blow back" from the primer, (both brands) around the firing pin area.

I know sabots can and will make a difference in how a ML shoots. The 300 gr XTP bullet sits real deep in the Harvester sabot Im using. Just barely can see the nose.

Do you think it's possible that accuracy would get better if I shorten the sabot petals to just barely sit under the ogive of the bullet? Just barely covering the bearing surface??

Could it be that this ML doesn't like this .452, 300 gr bullet. I shot them years ago in other ML's and everything was good. Same harvester sabot, except it was the standard black..(H5045LB)

Maybe the .429-430 bullets could help?????????

I also own a new CVA Optima V2 LR with thumbhole. Right out of the box it did real good with Hornady SST low drag 250gr bullets. I tried it successfully on a doe in December (see profile photo). I'ts the best shooting ML I have owned. The factory mounted scope did great so I'm leaving in use.
I suggest if you continue to have accuracy issues to contact CVA for potential warranty issue.