Groups opening on third shot

[Bratch]

Guys I’m a bit perplexed here and am hoping you guys have some ideas. I am new to muzzleloaders but not new to rifles.

I took advantage of the gorgeous December day to try and do some load testing for the first time.

Some background:

I am shooting an old pre 2009 CVA Optima with a Nikon 3-9.

Primers are coming out blackened so I’m probably getting some blowback and the action was sticky a couple times until I went to half cock after shooting. I’m not noticing any gases in my face while shooting.

On to the real problem, on the third and subsequent shots they were not any where close to the first two shots. This happened with every bullet and powder I tried today. For the most part shots one and two are grouping nicely.

Every shot was the same all day, alcohol patch swab and then a dry patch. Load and shoot. I tried for as much consistency as I could.

Here are the targets and explanations. Shots A1, A2 and D4, D5 are the only ones to pay attention to the target, everything else just look at groups.

A group: 300 gr XTP/green crush rib sabot

A1 was first shot of the day and first shot ever at 100 yards with this rifle after zeroing at 25 yards in mid October
I made a small scope adjustment for A2. A3 and A4 were next and then I made a big adjustment for A5. After A5 I didn’t touch the scope until D4.

B group: 290 gr Bore Driver
B1 and B2 were touching and got me excited. B3 and B4 were not.

C group: 270 gr BOR Lock
C1 and C2 were about an inch and then C3 and C4 fall apart.

D group: 240 gr XTP/ Hornady sabots
D1 and D2 have same windage but some elevation differences. D3 is a flyer. I adjusted the scope based and D1/D2 and D4 was good but D5 was way off and I’m not sure where D6 landed.

I was shooting off of a bipod and all of the shots felt good on the break with no callable flyers.

Mount is a DZN Game Reaper but I think it is for a post 2009 Optima. It is torqued down to spec and doesn’t feel loose.

Not sure where to go next.


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[MrTom]

Maybe I missed it, but what powder [or pellets] and are you measuring by volume or by weight? Primers are another thing to consider as not all are on equal ground. As for the sooty primers, you can use a small rubber o-ring in the primer pocket of the plug to help with that. Simple fix and very inexpensive.

Being an older rifle it's quite possible the plug is shot out.... the fire hole in the powder end has enlarged enough to cause erratic grouping. Replacement plugs are fairly cheap and I'd suggest getting one that's BH209 compatible so using that powder and T7 granular has better ignition.

 

[Bratch]

Maybe I missed it, but what powder [or pellets] and are you measuring by volume or by weight? Primers are another thing to consider as not all are on equal ground. As for the sooty primers, you can use a small rubber o-ring in the primer pocket of the plug to help with that. Simple fix and very inexpensive.

Being an older rifle it's quite possible the plug is shot out.... the fire hole in the powder end has enlarged enough to cause erratic grouping. Replacement plugs are fairly cheap and I'd suggest getting one that's BH209 compatible so using that powder and T7 granular has better ignition.

Was a mix (not at same time) of White Hot and FireStar pellets, 100gr of each. I’d shoot a group with one pellet type and then a different group with a different pellet.

Primers are Fed 209A.

I’m about 99% sure I replaced the breech plug when I cleaned up the rifle this spring. Should have less than 40 shots on it.

 

[FredB]

The scope, maybe?

 

[Mnt monkey]

I do a lot of group in target shooting so I understand the aggravation but for a hunting rifle if those first two bullets are really close almost touching I don't know what more you could ask I refer to that it's too bullets touching and it's constantly what I'm looking for the majority of the cva's or lighter weight 28 twist muzzleloaders that I've shot if I just load three back to back usually that third shots going to be off of group if I shot three or four different loads and bullets in those first two were real close and the third shot was off the group maybe I would question my scope which if I was going to question my scope why would it throw the first two shots together not saying it's not a scope issue I would switch to Loose Powder if it were me whether 777 or Blackhorn experiment some with primers and see if you can get it the gun to shoot a little bit cleaner that will help consistency, and I would probably let the rifle cool completely down so that the temperature of the metal was what it first started with when you shot the first two bullets just to see if that has any effect too,, I would try black horn 70 grains by weight 100 by volume and a fury 250 grain either the star tip or the black tip I bet your accuracy problems will be solved

 

[smokeeter]

when using sabots I've always had an issue with accuracy when barrel temps heated up, maybe try waiting for the barrel to cool between shots to see it things improve.

 

[Mnt monkey]

It seems like the most consistent bore as far as fouling is concerned is Blackhorn 209 you've heard the comment that it even lubricates which I agree to me one of the really sticking points of Black Horn is a more consistent fouled bore I know that there are those that still swab using Black Horn for me a rifle bore that has Black Horn in it it's just going to be more consistent shot to shot if I'm running triple seven or some of the tablets and I'm swabbing in between shots I know that that's sufficient for acceptable accuracy but how do I swab exactly the same every time I mean moisture level if I'm in a hurry on the patch and I know that sounds nitpicky but to me Blackhorn takes that issue and keeps it under control and it helps me keep my bore more constant. I clean after around 15 to 20 shots of Blackhorn or if it's the end of season Etc but most of the time my last three shots are just as accurate as my first

 

[smokepolehall]

I am of the school never adjust scope during group. Aim same shot n shoot. You can adjust later after the accuracy is what you want. Barrel heating n sabots, you can use a dry wool wad over powder n it will be good for the sabot. I always let barrel cool 15-20 between shots n don't let sabots sit in the Sun to heat up.

 

[snapbang]

if those first two bullets are really close almost touching I don't know what more you could ask

Agreed, for a hunting rifle you are good to go.

never adjust scope during group.

Never ever in my book. I have had occasion to have the point of impact jump. That is an adjustment intended to move the point of impact 1 inch could move it 2 inches. Whenever I make a scope adjustment I also tap the scope several times with a firm yet gentle rap or maybe several taps. do your shooting, make any adjustment needed, Then 2 more shots to confirm.

 

[birdog]

As stated above. Move the group and not individual shots.

 

[Charger1]

Bratch, I know this is so aggravating but it is a part of muzzleloading. Every ML is not created equal and you need to find what combination works best for YOUR ML.

I was there, and it's not a fun place to be. Taking advice is one thing, but putting in range time is where it will pay off.

I would start by changing to powder, BH or T7. If you decide to go with T7 ffg, you need to clean after every shot. Consistency is the key to making this work. Bullets, powder, and primers combination all make a difference.

Some find the right combination right at the get go, and others, not so lucky. Shot for groups only, and stop chasing the bullet. Slow down and take you time.

I shoot the Accura MR-X .45, and I was all over the place. Then with plenty of range time and trying different combos, it all start coming together. Slowly, I made adjustments to the combination, and found my groups closing in.

Stick with it, it will come, but it takes time. You will find what works for YOUR ML, and what doesn't. Good luck and get to the range.

 

[ElDiablo]

I’ve been there too at times myself trying to figure out what’s going wrong. It can be frustrating for sure.

Assuming you don’t have any system issues going on like a bad scope (you say you checked the mount and the plug is not eroded) then I’d pick one of those loads and shoot a five shot group. Two shots don’t really tell you anything statistically. Don’t move the scope during the group. Let the barrel cool and swab as you have been and see what you get. It may be that the rifle doesn’t like any of those loads.

Most of us (with some exceptions) have found that the .429” bullets in green .50 sabots don’t shoot as well as .45 cal bullets in black sabots. So I’d ditch those combos for now. Pick a combo that’s generally easy to get to shoot well. Loose powder will also help. (And if using pellets make certain you’re not seating so firmly that you’re crushing the pellets.)

The Bore Drivers are pretty easy to get to shoot well I’ve read so I’d probably try those first. Shoot a three-five shot group and see what you’ve got. If the group is bigger than you’d like, then change the powder charge and try again. I often shoot three-shot groups during load development - small groups like that won’t statistically tell you how good a load will shoot but it may tell you how bad. If bigger than you’re looking for then change something. Small groups always get bigger with more shots.

 

[Bratch]

Thanks for the help so far guys. I’ve picked up a few pointers to put into practice.

First step is I think I’ll change out the scope mount. The one I have is for a post-2009 CVA and this is a 2006 rifle. I have it mounted and torqued to spec and everything feels tight but maybe I’m getting a little movement during recoil. Not sure why two would group but then others open up on every group but it’s worth a shot.

I have a couple bottles of Pyrodex I can try for loose and will keep my eyes open for T7. I was hoping to find a pellet combo that would shoot good just for the ease of pellets but am open to loose if the pellets won’t work.

I’ll try to grab some 452 bullets to try as well.

I never felt the barrel get hot, it would be warm after a shot but by the time I swabbed and loaded the next round it felt back down to ambient (60*) temperature.

Winter is supposed to get here next week so I’m not sure when I’ll get back to the range for an update.

 

[1984dog]

I spent a lot of time trying to figure out what bullets to shoot in my Traditions Nitrofire. I found the 290 g Hornady Boredriver, 340 g Hornady Boredriver ELD-X and the 300 g Hornady SST (sabot) to be the most accurate. I next shot using a chronograph so that I could quantify muzzle velocity for establishing the right dope for my scope. After each shot, I ran a bore snake down the barrel.

Both Boredriver bullets were consistent, but the Hornady SST velocity dropped 200 fps after the 3rd shot. After a hard clean (using bore cleaner/solvent and a brush), the muzzle velocity returned to normal. In the past, I always attributed poor grouping to a hot/warm barrel. I now know the problem is plastic fouling. I would have never figured this out without the use of a chronagraph.

 

[Wilyote1]

Is there a chance you are seating the bullets different here? I believe I read a post in this forum on accuracy vs various seating pressures.

As a center fire reloader, when ever I get inconsistent results , I try to get rid of the variables. You didn't say how old those pellets were. Any chance your pellets are old?

I shoot a group then adjust the scope.

 

[Mnt monkey]

I shoot plastic day in and day out I've never had a barrel fouled with plastic residue from a sabot,, I have read about it and I guess I could see that happening if you were shooting such a hot load that you were blowing plastic you're bore must be very very rough if it fouls that much and if it's catching plastic residue,, I'm naive but isn't that natural fire stuff a form of Black Horn if it is I cannot get my mind around what's going on with your gun however I think many of us focus on a group of three or five and it does give us a better idea of what our gun is capable of but in a practical sense if it puts those first two bullets close that's pretty good you sure can't afford to be out in the field hunting with the rifle and have to clean it that thoroughly curious what others here will say, maybe someone else with the same rifle has noticed issues too

 

[Bratch]

Is there a chance you are seating the bullets different here? I believe I read a post in this forum on accuracy vs various seating pressures.

As a center fire reloader, when ever I get inconsistent results , I try to get rid of the variables. You didn't say how old those pellets were. Any chance your pellets are old?

I shoot a group then adjust the scope.

There’s a chance that I was seating at different pressures but I tried to be consistent. I wanted to make sure I had the bullet fully seated so I could have pushed harder on some.

White Hots are 1-2 years old and the FireStar I just bought a few weeks ago during the WalMart closeout.

 

[rangerod]

Moving individual shots is like a dog chasing its tail. It won't do you a bit of good if your load won't hold a group to begin with.

 

[ENCORE50A]

Box test yet?

You have to be consistent. You can't try to group with one type pellet, then with another. Don't switch up bullets and mix them up between different pellet types. You're wasting components, money and your time. Not that it should make a huge difference, but you're shooting pellets and using the highest-pressure primer available.

If you don't change to loose propellants, then start with shooting a single brand of pellet and forget the others. I'd also shoot a lower pressure primer. Use a single bullet type and forget the others.

You mentioned you shot from a bipod, but you didn't mention rather you used a rear bag. If you're not using a rear bag/rest, get one and use it while you're trying to determine an issue.
Use a ROCK SOLID rest.

KEEP YOUR FINGERS OFF THE SCOPE TURRETS. Don't chase bullets, as you're wasting your time and money.

Using the same POA, send 5 rounds, same pellets, same bullets. Do it on a clean target. A small paste it, or even a quarter size felt marker circle is all you need on the target. When and if you change bullets or pellets, use a separate target every time. Its much easier to compare groups. Also, to some, not all, the targets you're using can cause task saturation. Too many rings, squares and bulls.

Once you start chasing that scope, frustration sets in quickly. Add any other contributing factors, such as possible task saturation, you are not focusing clearly on your shooting and your groups WILL suffer.

 

[45-70]

Guys I’m a bit perplexed here and am hoping you guys have some ideas. I am new to muzzleloaders but not new to rifles.

I took advantage of the gorgeous December day to try and do some load testing for the first time.

Some background:

I am shooting an old pre 2009 CVA Optima with a Nikon 3-9.

Primers are coming out blackened so I’m probably getting some blowback and the action was sticky a couple times until I went to half cock after shooting. I’m not noticing any gases in my face while shooting.

On to the real problem, on the third and subsequent shots they were not any where close to the first two shots. This happened with every bullet and powder I tried today. For the most part shots one and two are grouping nicely.

Every shot was the same all day, alcohol patch swab and then a dry patch. Load and shoot. I tried for as much consistency as I could.

Here are the targets and explanations. Shots A1, A2 and D4, D5 are the only ones to pay attention to the target, everything else just look at groups.

A group: 300 gr XTP/green crush rib sabot

A1 was first shot of the day and first shot ever at 100 yards with this rifle after zeroing at 25 yards in mid October
I made a small scope adjustment for A2. A3 and A4 were next and then I made a big adjustment for A5. After A5 I didn’t touch the scope until D4.

B group: 290 gr Bore Driver
B1 and B2 were touching and got me excited. B3 and B4 were not.

C group: 270 gr BOR Lock
C1 and C2 were about an inch and then C3 and C4 fall apart.

D group: 240 gr XTP/ Hornady sabots
D1 and D2 have same windage but some elevation differences. D3 is a flyer. I adjusted the scope based and D1/D2 and D4 was good but D5 was way off and I’m not sure where D6 landed.

I was shooting off of a bipod and all of the shots felt good on the break with no callable flyers.

Mount is a DZN Game Reaper but I think it is for a post 2009 Optima. It is torqued down to spec and doesn’t feel loose.

Not sure where to go next.


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try without the bipod