Accuracy issues

[sdporter]

Hopefully someone else has experienced this and has found a solution. Last year Utah allowed magnifying scopes during the muzzleloading season. Prior years I had used Nikon Bucknaster 1x scopes on many of my smokepoles.
Last year I put a Vortex Diamondback 4x12x40 with a BDC Reticle on my White S91 .504 I just traded a chainsaw for this rifle and know the man I got it from very well as I had advised him to buy a White for his upcoming muzzy hunt the year before, and helped him get bullets etc.. I had seen pictures of the groups he had shot from it, 2” at 100 yards with a 1x scope. Shooting it this year with the Vortek, I can’t get better than 4” at 100 yards, with most groups closer to 6”. Shooting the same No Excuses 460 grain bullets. I have tried loads from 60 grains through 110 of Pyrodex p and also Pyrodex Select RS. The only difference between what we shot was he used ff T7. I haven’t tried that yet. Bought some yesterday but haven’t gotten out yet.
I’m having the same issue with my .451 s91 last year groups of 1.5” to 2” at 100 yards using 385 grain NE over 60 grains of fffT7 and same results with 460 grain NE over 90 grains fffT7. Put a Bushnell 3x9x40 with BDC on it and groups went to heck. I did run out of T7 last year and have been trying Pyro p and select RS. Could the T7 make that big of difference?
I suspected maybe leading or something along those lines and scrubbed the crap out of the bore. It looks like a mirror inside. I usually run a windex patch back and forth in the bore and then follow it with dry patches pushed all the way through and out the breech. Lastly I double a patch and push it through a couple of times and it fits pretty tight. I noticed that while pushing the double patches, the bore gets a little more snug closer to the breech. I can’t imagine these barrels are “shot out” yet they are a little looser as you travel up and out the bore. Gonna try T7 this weekend in both rifles this weekend and, hopefully it’s that simple. Any body else run into this. I slugged both bores and using a micrometer, not calipers, got .4515 on the .451 and .5038 on the .504 but I pushed both slugs all the way through. I probably should have pushed one all the way through and then pushed one halfway down from the muzzle then pushed it back out to check the difference in muzzle and breech. Anybody else run into anything like this?

 

[long shot]

scope might have a parallex in it

 

[ShawnT]

scope might have a parallex in it

That's what I am thinking too.

 

[sdporter]

That was the very first thought I had, and I t does at 30-40 yards for sure. I set it on the bed rail of the truck and looking through it at a target about that distance away, when I move my head around the crosshairs float all over. At about 100 yards they are steady as a rock. One other variable I didn’t mention is, I am shooting off a lead sled now, just got it last year. When I shoot off of the sand bags, I always had a hand up front kind of holding the gun down. On the sled, I put my left hand under the rifle on the sled rails, and the front of the gun isn’t strapped down. I’ll know by this weekend if that might be it. Probably is would be my guess. I’m gonna start my range session on the bags. The couple of milliseconds longer it takes the slug to get out of the barrel, over a centerfire rifle, could be making a difference. I hope that’s it.

 

[Batchief909]

Try some Swiss 3F powder under a 1/8th inch dry felt wad....seriously. I've been shooting Whites for several years. Swiss 3F is all I'll ever use.....EVER!

 

[Idaholewis]

That was the very first thought I had, and I t does at 30-40 yards for sure. I set it on the bed rail of the truck and looking through it at a target about that distance away, when I move my head around the crosshairs float all over. At about 100 yards they are steady as a rock. One other variable I didn’t mention is, I am shooting off a lead sled now, just got it last year. When I shoot off of the sand bags, I always had a hand up front kind of holding the gun down. On the sled, I put my left hand under the rifle on the sled rails, and the front of the gun isn’t strapped down. I’ll know by this weekend if that might be it. Probably is would be my guess. I’m gonna start my range session on the bags. The couple of milliseconds longer it takes the slug to get out of the barrel, over a centerfire rifle, could be making a difference. I hope that’s it.

Lead Sleds are BAD NEWS in my opinion, i have owned 2 different Styles of them over the years, They worked fine for My Centerfire Reload Development from the Bench, The problem i found was my shots were high when the Rifles were allowed to Recoil naturally against my shoulder, I gave up on the Lead Sleds. Plus I wouldn’t trust shooting my Sidelock Muzzleloaders in a Sled, Really good way to Crack a Stock. Good ole Sand Bags, ROCK SOLID, and your Rifle is allowed to Recoil naturally :yeah:

I killed a Deer and an Elk a few years back and Both were hit just under the Back Bone? I was Aiming for Low behind the Shoulder. I went out and test Shot my Rifle over the Hood of my truck, Sure enough i was shooting Way to high! I clipped the Bottom of the Elks Backbone and he went Straight down, The Buck i killed had to be shot a 2nd time as the Shot was in the “Void” Just under the Backbone, And Above the Lungs, i got REALLY lucky! This is when i did away with the Lead Sleds

 

[GM54-120]

When using a sled dont add any weight to it. Set it up so it can slide back on the table. Even with no weight added and the ability to slide, felt recoil will be MUCH less. Get something smooth on the top of your shooting bench if its not already. Like a small sheet of vinyl or linoleum flooring. Place something like a cheap moving blanket on the smooth surface. The entire sled will slide easily. You can also use something under the rubber feet that slide easier instead of a blanket or change the rubber feet to something that will slide.

Yeah its a PITA to reset it each shot but it works.

 

[silentstalker]

I had the same exact issue last year. Ended up sending back 3 scopes for replacement and even bought a new gun. IMO the sled was causing my scopes to break. The vendor does not check the scopes, rather they just replace them and toss the bad ones. I will never know for sure what happened.
My fourth scope is dead nuts on shooting 3 bullets into a cloverleaf at 100 yards. That muzzy combo will never be shot in a weighted lead sled again.

 

[Dave C]

Here we go again. Sleds DO NOT cause scopes to break. If they did, every optics mfr would void their warranty if the gun was shot off a sled. There is no physical reason that would rationally explain a scope breaking when shot off a sled as opposed to shooting off bags or any other method. Guys like to claim it's the scope because that's the easiest explanation for their crappy groups. Sleds CAN cause changes in POI of your shot due to the change in harmonics of the barrel when the gun recoils against a harder backstop. With a muzzleloader and lower MV's there can be significant muzzle rise before the slug leaves the barrel which can affect accuracy. As GM-54 said, the best way to use a sled is to allow it to slide and recoil naturally with little or no weight on it. Personally, I use 10 lbs. It softens the recoil enough for me to shoot for several hours if necessary without beating up my shoulder but still allows for a "natural" recoil. Once I'm done load-testing or sighting in with a sled, I always shoot off bags or bipod to confirm my POI and groupings. I rarely have to make any adjustments with this method.

 

[fishhawk2700]

Here we go again. Sleds DO NOT cause scopes to break. If they did, every optics mfr would void their warranty if the gun was shot off a sled. There is no physical reason that would rationally explain a scope breaking when shot off a sled as opposed to shooting off bags or any other method. Guys like to claim it's the scope because that's the easiest explanation for their crappy groups. Sleds CAN cause changes in POI of your shot due to the change in harmonics of the barrel when the gun recoils against a harder backstop. With a muzzleloader and lower MV's there can be significant muzzle rise before the slug leaves the barrel which can affect accuracy. As GM-54 said, the best way to use a sled is to allow it to slide and recoil naturally with little or no weight on it. Personally, I use 10 lbs. It softens the recoil enough for me to shoot for several hours if necessary without beating up my shoulder but still allows for a "natural" recoil. Once I'm done load-testing or sighting in with a sled, I always shoot off bags or bipod to confirm my POI and groupings. I rarely have to make any adjustments with this method.

You might want to include an"IMO" when making such broad statements. IMO, weighted Led Sleds, can and do cause damage to stocks, action screws, barrel lugs, scope rings, and scopes. I'm speaking from experience. I shoot an Ultimate Firearms Black Widow, which is an extremely high recoil ML. When i bought the rifle, I was told that I could shoot it off a led sled with 20 lb of weight. Well, I shot it a lot, but at about 300 rounds groups started to open up. My scope, a Leupold VX6 3X18X44 started to string to the north. I could dial it back down, but it would take off to the north again. I finally disassembled the whole rifle and found damage throughout. UF in their infinite wisdom decided that their rifles didn't need pillars in the stocks(28.00 from McMillan) so the first issue i found was a crack in the stock behind the rear action screw. Without pillars, the barreled action worked back and forth in the stock and cracked the stock and bent the middle action screw, and knocked a chunk of stock out at the end of the ramrod channel. When the scope came off, I found the dovetail on the front Leupold base had been worked back and forth to the point of being sloppy. You could wiggle it and spin it with two fingers. The scope went back to Leupold where they found the erector springs were broken. Needless to say, when I do use my sled now, it is with zero weight.

When it comes to White rifles, I would not use a sled at all on White Lightning or early "G" series rifles. Later "G" series, S91, 98, Tbolts and the rest of the later rifles go on the sled only if they have ben bedded. Just to be safe shoot them off bags.

 

[1874sharpsshooter]

I do not use a lead sled cause. “In My Honest Opinion “. They can cause damage to a gun if the recoil is stiff enough . If the gun don’t move something has to give . Cracked stocks and broken scopes are a byproduct of a leadsled

IMHO of course ..... so yes here we go again ..,,

 

[Idaholewis]

I do not use a lead sled cause. “In My Honest Opinion “. They can cause damage to a gun if the recoil is stiff enough . If the gun don’t move something has to give . Cracked stocks and broken scopes are a byproduct of a leadsled

IMHO of course ..... so yes here we go again ..,,

Good post 1874sharpsshooter :yeah: Years ago I bought a Remington 700 Chambered for their then new .375 Ultra Mag, That rifle KICKED like a MULE and then some!! I would rate it to a 12 Gauge with 3-3-1/2” Magnum loads, It was NOT a fun rifle to shoot from a Bench Rest, it PUNISHED ya. This is when i bought my 1st Lead Sled, i ended up settling on 2 bags of Lead shot (50 pounds) I had a Leuopold VX-2 3X9 or 4-12 Scope on the Rifle, and Leupold Dual Dovetail Rings/Bases, The Rifle held Zero no problem and it would TRULY shoot a Dime at 100 yards with my Taylored Reloads, After a solid 100 rounds through that Rifle i decided to Swap out the Stock Hard rubber recoil pad with a Much thicker and Softer Limb Saver Pad for when i shot without the Sled, when i Swapped them out I found the Cross members of the thick Plastic had Broke (underside of pad hidden in the Stock) The lead Sled most definitely did it’s job But at a Cost.

Before I understood the negative effects of the Lead Sled i was PROUD of that thing! I had it with me on a Sandpit shooting session with my Dad and his .300 Win Mag, i just knew he would be impressed with the Sled! Boy was i wrong! Dad looked the Sled over and played around with it a bit, to my surprise he opted to NOT even try it??? He didn’t like the idea of it from the very start. It was later down the rd that i ran in to my few issues with the Sled, I told Dad about them, and that i had given up on it, He just smiled and said “I didn’t trust that thing the very first time i seen it”

If one chooses to use a Lead Sled i FULLY agree with GM54’s post above, NO weight in it, and use something under the rubber feet so the Sled can Slide Under Recoil, they make a fine Cradle/Support for your rifle, But it’s my belief a Rifle should be allowed to Recoil naturally :yeah:

 

[Dave C]

Here we go again. Sleds DO NOT cause scopes to break. If they did, every optics mfr would void their warranty if the gun was shot off a sled. There is no physical reason that would rationally explain a scope breaking when shot off a sled as opposed to shooting off bags or any other method. Guys like to claim it's the scope because that's the easiest explanation for their crappy groups. Sleds CAN cause changes in POI of your shot due to the change in harmonics of the barrel when the gun recoils against a harder backstop. With a muzzleloader and lower MV's there can be significant muzzle rise before the slug leaves the barrel which can affect accuracy. As GM-54 said, the best way to use a sled is to allow it to slide and recoil naturally with little or no weight on it. Personally, I use 10 lbs. It softens the recoil enough for me to shoot for several hours if necessary without beating up my shoulder but still allows for a "natural" recoil. Once I'm done load-testing or sighting in with a sled, I always shoot off bags or bipod to confirm my POI and groupings. I rarely have to make any adjustments with this method.

When the scope came off, I found the dovetail on the front Leupold base had been worked back and forth to the point of being sloppy. You could wiggle it and spin it with two fingers.

This is not a sled issue. It is a scope-mounting issue.

This is not "My Opinion." It is the laws of Physics. Are you guys gonna start claiming that only guys weighing under 200 lbs should shoot rifles with scopes because, essentially, you're saying the same thing? Recoil backforce is dependent on the opposing weight and resistance applied in the opposite direction of recoil. Can a sled cause stock breakage? Yes, because it is a potentially weak link between the recoil force and backstop force. Scope damage? No. Because the scope is integral with the barrel assembly of the gun, the scope moves in the direction of recoil. The force and acceleration that the scope moves rearward is the same as any equal and opposite force resisting the movement.(In fact, the opposing force is likely quite a bit less when you factor in recoil pads and "sliding" of the sled which almost always occurs even with heavy weights and dampens the recoil over time) In other words, if you're going to claim that a scope can't handle the recoil stop from a sled, then it can't handle the sharp acceleration from a dead stop that occurs at the moment of firing the gun. Any quality scope which has been properly mounted is designed to handle the anticipated recoil of a gun. Scopes aren't made to handle the recoil in one direction and not the other. Don't you think if, somehow, sleds caused damage to scopes that scope manufacturers would void their warranties if you used one???? Guys like to blame the scope for their groups but the reality is that it's more likely their own shooting or muzzle jump from using the sled and NOT a bad scope.

 

[1874sharpsshooter]

Right ........ and CVA is the best gun , Powerbeltsv are the best Bullet, APP is the best powder, ad nauseum and your opinion is a “ fact” not an opinion . My opinion is you can’t fix stupid . Oh wait , that’s not my opinion that’s a law , like physics

 

[fishhawk2700]

Here we go again. Sleds DO NOT cause scopes to break. If they did, every optics mfr would void their warranty if the gun was shot off a sled. There is no physical reason that would rationally explain a scope breaking when shot off a sled as opposed to shooting off bags or any other method. Guys like to claim it's the scope because that's the easiest explanation for their crappy groups. Sleds CAN cause changes in POI of your shot due to the change in harmonics of the barrel when the gun recoils against a harder backstop. With a muzzleloader and lower MV's there can be significant muzzle rise before the slug leaves the barrel which can affect accuracy. As GM-54 said, the best way to use a sled is to allow it to slide and recoil naturally with little or no weight on it. Personally, I use 10 lbs. It softens the recoil enough for me to shoot for several hours if necessary without beating up my shoulder but still allows for a "natural" recoil. Once I'm done load-testing or sighting in with a sled, I always shoot off bags or bipod to confirm my POI and groupings. I rarely have to make any adjustments with this method.

When the scope came off, I found the dovetail on the front Leupold base had been worked back and forth to the point of being sloppy. You could wiggle it and spin it with two fingers.

This is not a sled issue. It is a scope-mounting issue.

This is not "My Opinion." It is the laws of Physics. Are you guys gonna start claiming that only guys weighing under 200 lbs should shoot rifles with scopes because, essentially, you're saying the same thing? Recoil backforce is dependent on the opposing weight and resistance applied in the opposite direction of recoil. Can a sled cause stock breakage? Yes, because it is a potentially weak link between the recoil force and backstop force. Scope damage? No. Because the scope is integral with the barrel assembly of the gun, the scope moves in the direction of recoil. The force and acceleration that the scope moves rearward is the same as any equal and opposite force resisting the movement.(In fact, the opposing force is likely quite a bit less when you factor in recoil pads and "sliding" of the sled which almost always occurs even with heavy weights and dampens the recoil over time) In other words, if you're going to claim that a scope can't handle the recoil stop from a sled, then it can't handle the sharp acceleration from a dead stop that occurs at the moment of firing the gun. Any quality scope which has been properly mounted is designed to handle the anticipated recoil of a gun. Scopes aren't made to handle the recoil in one direction and not the other. Don't you think if, somehow, sleds caused damage to scopes that scope manufacturers would void their warranties if you used one???? Guys like to blame the scope for their groups but the reality is that it's more likely their own shooting or muzzle jump from using the sled and NOT a bad scope.

When we explained our problem with scope and mount issues to Leupold, leupold responded by telling us right flat out,"do not use those mounts on magnum load rifles". My issues were not mine alone. There were other UF owners that had the same issues with Leupold mounts, and other scopes.
In almost all failures weighted sleds were used. I agree that properly mounted scopes are "integral" the barreled actions, but internal parts are not. they can and will break with excessive acceleration/deceleration.(except maybe Nightforce ATACR) Bottom line for me is, unweighted Led Sled for zeroing only. After that it's bags.

 

[Dave C]

When the scope came off, I found the dovetail on the front Leupold base had been worked back and forth to the point of being sloppy. You could wiggle it and spin it with two fingers.

This is not a sled issue. It is a scope-mounting issue.

This is not "My Opinion." It is the laws of Physics. Are you guys gonna start claiming that only guys weighing under 200 lbs should shoot rifles with scopes because, essentially, you're saying the same thing? Recoil backforce is dependent on the opposing weight and resistance applied in the opposite direction of recoil. Can a sled cause stock breakage? Yes, because it is a potentially weak link between the recoil force and backstop force. Scope damage? No. Because the scope is integral with the barrel assembly of the gun, the scope moves in the direction of recoil. The force and acceleration that the scope moves rearward is the same as any equal and opposite force resisting the movement.(In fact, the opposing force is likely quite a bit less when you factor in recoil pads and "sliding" of the sled which almost always occurs even with heavy weights and dampens the recoil over time) In other words, if you're going to claim that a scope can't handle the recoil stop from a sled, then it can't handle the sharp acceleration from a dead stop that occurs at the moment of firing the gun. Any quality scope which has been properly mounted is designed to handle the anticipated recoil of a gun. Scopes aren't made to handle the recoil in one direction and not the other. Don't you think if, somehow, sleds caused damage to scopes that scope manufacturers would void their warranties if you used one???? Guys like to blame the scope for their groups but the reality is that it's more likely their own shooting or muzzle jump from using the sled and NOT a bad scope.

When we explained our problem with scope and mount issues to Leupold, leupold responded by telling us right flat out,"do not use those mounts on magnum load rifles". My issues were not mine alone. There were other UF owners that had the same issues with Leupold mounts, and other scopes.
In almost all failures weighted sleds were used. I agree that properly mounted scopes are "integral" the barreled actions, but internal parts are not. they can and will break with excessive acceleration/deceleration.(except maybe Nightforce ATACR) Bottom line for me is, unweighted Led Sled for zeroing only. After that it's bags.

Know why they told you that? Because it's a problem with the mounts themselves not able to withstand the higher recoil of a magnum load. It's a problem with the mounts, not the scope or the result of the sled. Notice they didn't tell you not to use a sled? That's because it would still happen even if you didn't, purely due to the inability of the mounts to withstand the recoil force of the gun regardless of how it was shot

 

[fishhawk2700]

Never told them I was using a sled

 

[flounder]

Never owned a sled and I really see no reason to. I use bags to get a gun sighted in and find a load that works. After that I am practicing my shooting in a way that is similar to shooting out in the field, freehand, against a tree, and on a sawhorse which is similar to resting it on the rail of my treestand. This is important to me because the shot in the field is the shot that matters most.

 

[dbowling]

exactly what I do, might as well shoot the way you hunt, not too many led sleds in the woods.. I often just use a rolled up towel or a seat cushion with towel on it.

Never owned a sled and I really see no reason to. I use bags to get a gun sighted in and find a load that works. After that I am practicing my shooting in a way that is similar to shooting out in the field, freehand, against a tree, and on a sawhorse which is similar to resting it on the rail of my treestand. This is important to me because the shot in the field is the shot that matters most.

 

[sdporter]

Wow, didn’t mean to get everybody all worked up. So last Sunday, I went out and switched to 777fffg in my S91 .451 60 grains 385 grain NE bullet. Shot about a 3” group at 100 yards. Hit a football at 200 yards. That will do for this year. It’s “minute of deer” out to 200. I think I stated earlier that I used to just use sandbags. I wasn’t holding the front of my gun down in the sled, just had it sitting in there. Sunday I kept a hand up on the fore end. It helped some. It’s hard to switch back to the sandbags after being able to shoot all day and still lift my arm up the next morning. I’m gonna try just the bags tomorrow. One other thing I did that might be hurting me, is a hammer mod I did to the gun, well actually to the knurled knob. I made a tee handle on the lathe and mill so I could cock the gun easier with a scope on it. Actually letting the hammer down is downright scary with just the knurled knob. The way the scope is on there, there’s not a lot of room to hang on to that sucker. The tee handle probably weighs 3x that of the knurled knob and probably induces a little movement before the bullet actually leaves the barrel.
I didn’t put one on my .504 S91 so it’s gotta be the sled. I’ll try and post a pic of my group and the cocking knob mod I did