are pellets dirtier than powder?

[user 30913]

<tl;dr> Is loose powder "less dirty" than pellets? (I'm talking about black powder substitutes, and ignoring BH209 for the moment).

Being new to muzzleloaders, I didn't know what to expect when I took my CVA Optima to the range. I heard people say you have to run patches through the barrel after every few shots, but I didn't realize how bad it was until I tried it myself.

I shot a 245gr PowerBelt with 2 pellets of White Hots -- and after only a SINGLE shot, I could not load a second bullet. It came up about a half-inch to an inch short. I couldn't even unload that second bullet - it got so stuck, I couldn't push it out with a range rod in either direction. I had to load 2 pellets in the breach, seat the bullet down as far as it would go, and had to shoot it out.

I also tried 777 pellets, but those looked almost as dirty as the White Hots (I didn't attempt a second shot with 777 without patching the barrel). I don't have Pyrodex pellets because everything I've read and was told, Pyrodex is the dirtiest of them all. So I avoided even trying those.

Honestly, I don't know how people can shoot multiple times with these pellets without at least swabbing the barrel once in between shots.

So my question is - does loose powder help alleviate this problem? (ignore BH209 - I know that burns much cleaner; but I can't find BH209 and even if I could, the price is something that I would like to avoid - crazy expensive right now). So I'm thinking of trying 777 powder, but I don't want to spend the money if it won't help anyway.

I read somewhere that the pellets have some kind of "glue" material that they use which is how they get the pellets to form, and that the glue is part of what makes them so dirty. If that is so, I'm wondering if loose powder would at least help me get a second shot without having to swab the barrel. It isn't a problem at the range, but I'm thinking in a hunting situation, I would like to be able to at least get off a second shot without having to waste time running a patch or two through the barrel first.

 

[deermanok]

I think all powders, loose or pellets are dirty. I actually shoot mostly real black powder and find that using a patched round ball is about the only projectile that I can reload easily for a second shot, along with the occasional conical bullet.

 

[smokepolehall]

I don't know ! I have never wasted my time nor money fooling with pellets of any type. Now the word is never allow air space in bore under ball or conical/bullet. They have a centered hole in those pellets , why ?

 

[ENCORE50A]

So my question is - does loose powder help alleviate this problem? (

No. You have to swab between rounds. Nature of the beast.

 

[user 30913]

They have a centered hole in those pellets , why ?

I'm pretty sure it aids in igniting the pellets more fully, quickly and uniformly. Even BH209 granules have little holes in them.. this picture is from this article: https://www.namlhunt.com/blackhorn209-1.html

(picture is from: https://www.namlhunt.com/uploads/3/4/2/2/34220093/568900_orig.jpg )

 

[smokepolehall]

I'm pretty sure it aids in igniting the pellets more fully, quickly and uniformly. Even BH209 granules have little holes in them.. this picture is from this article: https://www.namlhunt.com/blackhorn209-1.html

(picture is from: https://www.namlhunt.com/uploads/3/4/2/2/34220093/568900_orig.jpg )

Yes i know about the tubular powders with the tiny hole. I was referring to the pellets with 1/6-1/32 hole . I spect they as in some Engineer will say it burns from inside out.

 

[southdakbearfan]

Pellets will give you the dreaded crud ring, which forms in that exact area, about 1-2” from the bullet being seated.

Muzzleloading specific primers help ease this, they are less powerful than regular shotgun 209’s.

How many times you can load depends on the bullet or bullet sabot combo you are utilizing as well. Some sabots and bullets just fit the bore in a manner that makes it very difficult to load without swabbing regardless of primer or propellant in my experience.

Here is my combo in my Optima v2 that has performed well and allows me to load in the field a couple times without swabbing. 2 - 50 gr equivalent IMR white hots, 300 gr Harvester PT gold 45 cal bullet, Harvester crush rib sabot, Winchester T7 209 primer. I can get 3 shots fairly easy without swabbing. I have found the white hots to give a little grittier fouling than a T7 but less build up overall. The biggest change was when I switched to the T7 209 primer from a standard 209. This cut my crude ring down very significantly in both the amount of it and the hardness of the ring itself. 3 shots is my self imposed limit, but I could and have gotten to 5 or 6 just to see. The last few inches get difficult and the amount of force it takes to seat may crack the pellets when it decides to let loose that last couple inches after the third shot.

The crush rib sabot loads easier than any other sabot or powerbelt I have tried. I even tried the harvester version of a powerbelt as well the sabertooth. The accuracy was very good as well.

 

[Steelheader323]

Naturally pellets are dirtier than loose powder..pellet powder has binding agents to keep it in shape or as you mentioned the glue..thus adding one more piece that needs to be burned and expelled from the barrel…will you notice the different? Possibly not..but I will say that you will get way more bang for your buck with loose powder..wether it’s real
Black or triple 7 you will save hugely by buying loose powder and a 10$ volumetric measurer..with the economy the way it is I find it hard to understand why anyone uses pellet powder anymore when you compare shot to shot cost with a jar of loose powder..plus it is technically cleaner burning.

 

[ENCORE50A]

............... I find it hard to understand why anyone uses pellet powder anymore when you compare shot to shot cost with a jar of loose powder..plus it is technically cleaner burning.

Depending on how much one shoots, pellets still work and work well in some rifles. Example: BP Xpress or RUM.
Cleans up easily and quickly.

 

[Steelheader323]

Depending on how much one shoots, pellets still work and work well in some rifles. Example: BP Xpress or RUM.
Cleans up easily and quickly.

I am sure they do..this is off topic a bit here but it seems like I always hear guys complain about the cost of bh209 and while yes it is way out of hand for cost these are the same guys paying roughly 50$ for 100 pellets compared to a pound of loose triple 7 for 35$

with a 100 grain charge of triple 7 that’s 70 shots per pound compared to 50 shots per container of pellets..it could Be even cheaper if a guy ran 90 grains of loose as that’s about the equivalent to 2 pellets worth as far as velocity goes

 

[MrTom]

<tl;dr> Is loose powder "less dirty" than pellets? (I'm talking about black powder substitutes, and ignoring BH209 for the moment).

So my question is - does loose powder help alleviate this problem? (ignore BH209 - I know that burns much cleaner; but I can't find BH209 and even if I could, the price is something that I would like to avoid - crazy expensive right now). So I'm thinking of trying 777 powder, but I don't want to spend the money if it won't help anyway.

Laudy1962 mentioned Shooters World Black Powder a while back as being repeatable loads without needing to swab or patch between shots. I have not used the product so I can't say yea or nay as to where the claim is true. You could send him a message and ask.

I do know from experience that all of the T7 products as well as the White Hots and Pyrodex shoot quite dirty. The T7 and White Hots are notorious for the crud ring and using the "muzzleloader specific" primers may off some relief, but I have no first hand knowledge with that. I shoot T7 3f at the range and just take time to run a patch down the pipe between shots. I hunt with BH209 and , of course, it doesn't have the issues that the other powders have.

 

[archer36]

Not being able to reload after one shot is concerning. Especially with Powerbelts. Try a projectile with Crush Rib Sabots. Make sure you are using the correct size for your bullet. If you can manage at least two reloads without cleaning, it's good enough for real world hunting. Being able to reload 10+ times may be great at the range, but it means nothing in real world hunting., You will very rarely ever need more than one more shot/reload.
While at the range, you can remove your breech plug and do some cleaning every two or three shots if needed. The cleaning need not be thorough, only enough to remove the heavier deposits.

 

[GregK]

Cost, consistency, limited grain weight are all negatives when it comes to pellets
T73F or any loose powder allows you to easily work up the best loads. You’re definitely gonna have the swab between shots with T7 of any kind.
Hodgdon has just gotten ridiculous with Blackhorn price & I will NOT pay $80 plus for 8oz of it!!!
I picked up T73F commercial as well as some APP powder. Not sure that I’m getting back in the muzzleloading hunting since we’re able to use our center fire Rifles during ML season, but I do want to play with these powders and see what they capable of and how they perform across the board including crowd, rings, and reloading.

Greg

 

[Big Nick Z]

X2 on the Crush Rib Sabots with the 300 gr Harvester PT gold 45 cal bullet.
Huge difference in loading for me in my 50 cal PLUS great groupings.
I was at the range 2 days ago trying T7 vs Shooters world (both fff) in my 45 cal with Win 209 primers using No Excuses 240 gr sabots and Id have to say the T7 was slightly better to load a 2nd shot for me.. Still rough though.
Hopefully if you need a 2nd shot in a hunting situation the adrenaline will make loading a breeze

 

[Big Nick Z]

I should mention that I was comparing the T7 and SW powder that day to try and find a way not to use BH209 anymore for the obvious reason. But the BH209 shoots so well and clean for me. Loading, burning, groupings, and way less swabbing and being that I'll only use maybe 2 pounds at most a year i'm biting the bullet and staying with the BH. I just can't get the consistency i want otherwise.

 

[ElDiablo]

Not sure that I’m getting back in the muzzleloading hunting since we’re able to use our center fire Rifles during ML season,

Centerfires during ML season?! Where?

 

[michiganmuzzy]

Centerfires during ML season?! Where?

Yep, here in MI you can use a shotgun, 350L, 450BM, and many pistol cartridges(straight wall) during ML season.

 

[jbs27572]

It is very unlikely you would get a second shot hunting anyway. In the time it takes you to load a muzzle loader (not to mention all the movement), any game would be long gone. It's part of the allure of hunting with one. You have one shot; make it count.

I used to hunt with T7 pellets or white hots but when I went loose powder, I never went back. I really hated cleaning up the mess with BP so I switched to BH 209. With the relatively small amount of shooting I do with a muzzle loader outside of hunting season, one 8 oz container will last me a couple seasons so even with the extra expense, it is worth it for me.

 

[Big Nick Z]

It is very unlikely you would get a second shot hunting anyway. In the time it takes you to load a muzzle loader (not to mention all the movement), any game would be long gone. It's part of the allure of hunting with one. You have one shot; make it count.

I used to hunt with T7 pellets or white hots but when I went loose powder, I never went back. I really hated cleaning up the mess with BP so I switched to BH 209. With the relatively small amount of shooting I do with a muzzle loader outside of hunting season, one 8 oz container will last me a couple seasons so even with the extra expense, it is worth it for me.

I agree!
I meant 2 cans a year for me by the way.. not 2 pounds.
I'm getting off topic here..

 

[user 30727]

<tl;dr> Is loose powder "less dirty" than pellets? (I'm talking about black powder substitutes, and ignoring BH209 for the moment).

Being new to muzzleloaders, I didn't know what to expect when I took my CVA Optima to the range. I heard people say you have to run patches through the barrel after every few shots, but I didn't realize how bad it was until I tried it myself.

I shot a 245gr PowerBelt with 2 pellets of White Hots -- and after only a SINGLE shot, I could not load a second bullet. It came up about a half-inch to an inch short. I couldn't even unload that second bullet - it got so stuck, I couldn't push it out with a range rod in either direction. I had to load 2 pellets in the breach, seat the bullet down as far as it would go, and had to shoot it out.

I also tried 777 pellets, but those looked almost as dirty as the White Hots (I didn't attempt a second shot with 777 without patching the barrel). I don't have Pyrodex pellets because everything I've read and was told, Pyrodex is the dirtiest of them all. So I avoided even trying those.

Honestly, I don't know how people can shoot multiple times with these pellets without at least swabbing the barrel once in between shots.

So my question is - does loose powder help alleviate this problem? (ignore BH209 - I know that burns much cleaner; but I can't find BH209 and even if I could, the price is something that I would like to avoid - crazy expensive right now). So I'm thinking of trying 777 powder, but I don't want to spend the money if it won't help anyway.

I read somewhere that the pellets have some kind of "glue" material that they use which is how they get the pellets to form, and that the glue is part of what makes them so dirty. If that is so, I'm wondering if loose powder would at least help me get a second shot without having to swab the barrel. It isn't a problem at the range, but I'm thinking in a hunting situation, I would like to be able to at least get off a second shot without having to waste time running a patch or two through the barrel first.

I too rely on a quick second shot while hunting with my Remington 700 ML. I will not us a powder in any form if I can’t quickly load a second shot without swabbing the bore. The only powder I found that makes this possible is real black powder. Pyrodex is no good for this purpose and 777 is even worse, way worse!