Barnes Original Bullet 45-70 Gov (458 Diameter) 300 gr.

[Anonymous]

Barnes Original Bullets 45-70 Government (458 Diameter) 300 Grain Semi-Spitzer Box of 50

"Designed to the personal specifications of Fred Barnes for his own use on big game, the Original is made by pressure forming a thick copper jacket around a pure lead core. The Original typically expands to more than 200 percent of its original diameter and retains 70-90 percent of its original bullet weight.

Product #: 635838
Manufacturer #: 457010"

The above is the bullet I've raved about, available direct from Barnes or from Midway USA. Nothing shoots better from my Savages when used with the MMP ORANGE .50 - .458 sabot.

 

[Nic_58]

I just ordered some of the .458 Barnes Originals and the MMP orange sabots last night. Gonna go pick up a couple pounds of N120 on Wednesday and I should be good to go! All I'll need then is some COOL weather to try all this new stuff out in! 8) I can hardly wait!

 

[Anonymous]

Randy, what is the velocity window for expansion of this bullet?

Expansion for whitetail size animals.

 

[Anonymous]

Randy, what is the velocity window for expansion of this bullet?

Expansion for whitetail size animals.

Nic_58, you should have some orange sabots in your mailbox about wednesday. Hope it cools down up your way, it will cool down here a day or two after your locale!

 

[Nic_58]

Nic_58, you should have some orange sabots in your mailbox about wednesday.

Thanks, RAZORBACK! I'll be looking for them! If the Barnes .458's and your Orange sabots shoot anywhere near as good as RW says, I'll be ordering more for sure!

 

[Anonymous]

Even though it is pure lead inside copper, Barnes says you need to strike at about 1600 fps for expansion. It is a tough jacket, .032" thick. It does not expand as easily as the deep hollow point of the MZ-Expanders, that Barnes claims expands down to 1000 fps or so.


Dug out of the dirt at 130 yards, it had 225% expansion:

And-- good weight retention as well:

As the nose of this bullet is pure lead, so you will want to use a ramrod tip that fits the ogive, being careful not to mash and smash the nose during seating with a blunt tip. Assuming a 2100 fps muzzle velocity, this bullet has a 6" kill MPBR of over 200 yards, retaining over 1600 fps velocity and 1700 fpe at 200 yards.

At the 2272 fps I've been shooting it, the trajectory is something like this:

A lot is really unknown, as it is primarily a .45-70 bullet, you would think that it be sufficient at modern 45-70 velocities-- faster than you might try to push something out of an old Trapdoor.

The older Fred Barnes Originals had a .40" jacket, tougher yet. I don't believe Barnes has done much shooting or testing with the "Originals" for a while, focusing instead on the newer stuff-- Triple Shocks, etc. So, we will just have to find out how it does first hand. Since it shoots so well (better than 3/4" in. @ 100 yds) and comparatively flat, it will get its chance.

The 350 gr. MZ-Expanders, and the 350 .458 X-Bullets shoot beautifully with .50 / .458 sabots as well-- but, too much recoil for my shoulder to move them at any speed. :shock: No fun. I like the looks of the .458 300 gr. Flat Nose Originals, but haven't had the chance to test them yet-- 104 degrees in the shade here today.

 

[Nic_58]

Since it shoots so well (better than 3/4" in. @ 100 yds) and comparatively flat, it will get its chance.

Randy, didn't I read on here that you were going to be trying this load out on antelope out west later on? Just wondering if this is still the load you are going to use on the antelope hunt or if you have another load you will be using.

 

[Anonymous]

If the Barnes .458's and your Orange sabots shoot anywhere near as good as RW says, I'll be ordering more for sure!

Well, you better get ready to order a pile of them!

Rifleman on this forum has shot them, they did well. Ray Robson tried them out of his HB 10ML-II: "scary accurate" was his verdict. Maximum deviations of two feet per second w/ N120.

A fellow from the Tennessee Wildlife Comm. has called a few times sharing his experiences: he has shot many, many whitetail (depredation stuff) with this bullet out of his Shiloh Sharps (MV=2100 fps) out to 300 yards or so, and it has stomped them.

All of this makes things look very, very promising. The best thing to happen for the Savage in a long, long while has been the .50 - .458 Orange MMP sabot. The whole world of 45-70 rifle bullets in now wide open to work with.

As far as this bullet, which is .933 in. long, the "Greenhill Twist" is 73.6 calibers or 1:33.7 rate of twist. No reason why the 1:24 10ML-II should be not be able to stabilize this bullet down to a more comfy 1900 fps MV.

That's still a 186 yard 6" kill MPBR load with 1452 fpe @ 190 yards. And, really, let's not kid ourselves--------- 99% of muzzleloading deer are still taken inside 75 yards.

 

[Anonymous]

Randy, didn't I read on here that you were going to be trying this load out on antelope out west later on? Just wondering if this is still the load you are going to use on the antelope hunt or if you have another load you will be using.

Unless I can find something that shoots better in the meantime, which I really doubt-- that's the bullet and the sabot without question. Maybe someday I'll list all the combinations that I can't get to shoot accurately at all? :? This is one of those "one in a hundred" loads that you just don't stumble across very often.

Live weight on a nice pronghorn is 130 lbs., so I'm told. With a 300 gr. bullet in the right spot, I can't tell you that I much care if it expands or not. I'm interested, of course, but that is a big hole in a pronghorn that even at 65 mph isn't going very far after a good hit.

 

[Rifleman]

In my opinion this is THE bullet sabot combo in the MLII. You can go fast with this dude too, however accuracy is best under 2400 fps in my experience.

 

[Nic_58]

Rifleman, did you find the best accuracy with N120 also?

 

[Rifleman]

I have shot that bullet with 2015,h322 and n120 and frankly I can't tell much of a difference in raw accuracy. Really it seems to me when you find a right load with each powder that bullet just wants to shoot. I have long maintained that powder has a lot less to do with accuracy then the bullet.

 

[VLP.204]

Anyone try this bullet with 5744 and what kind of velocity can you get with it?

 

[Anonymous]

Yes, it shoots well-- velocities are similar to 5744 with any other 300 gr. saboted bullet.

 

[eric10ml II]

.458 X & .458 original

First time out in while tryd the two bullets stated in this thred .I can not stabalize this bullet (.458 x ) shot 18 rounds with vv120 60&65 gr.They just dont shoot they tumbel , have a hard time to hit a '2x'2 target :shock: now im stuck with a hole box of these at $30.00cnd
Now for the .458 original WOW they shoot great with 61.5gr vv120 "4 drop at 200 sub "1moa at 100 & sub "2moa at 200 this is going to be my load for my fall moose hunt.I would of preferd the X bullet . Is this normal for the bullet to doo this someone told me that the twist is not slow enough for this bullet What doo you think or is it just my gun :?:

 

[Anonymous]

Barnes Original Bullets 45-70 Gov. 300 gr. .458 SemiSpitzer

First time out in while tryd the two bullets stated in this thred .I can not stabalize this bullet (.458 x ) shot 18 rounds with vv120 60&65 gr.They just dont shoot they tumbel , have a hard time to hit a '2x'2 target :shock: now im stuck with a hole box of these at $30.00cnd
Now for the .458 original WOW they shoot great with 61.5gr vv120 "4 drop at 200 sub "1moa at 100 & sub "2moa at 200 this is going to be my load for my fall moose hunt.I would of preferd the X bullet . Is this normal for the bullet to doo this someone told me that the twist is not slow enough for this bullet What doo you think or is it just my gun :?:

Hi Eric,

Well-- the title of this thread is "Barnes Original Bullets 45-70 Government (458 Diameter) 300 Grain Semi-Spitzer"-- and that is the bullet I've had such great luck with.

I never have had any luck in getting the 300 "X" bullet to group, and have said so here and in many other places. The 350 "X" bullet does group-- you need a powder change (AA 2015), but the recoil at any substantial velocity is far more than I care to enjoy. :cry:

 

[eric10ml II]

Thanks Randy I have reed your statment on the .458 x ill just give them to a bud that has a 458 win mag he shoul enjoy theme. :wink:
Have you tested the new Barnes SPIT-FIRE in 285gr with the yellow sabot yet .I got 30 round of theme but did not have time to try theme yet .What do you think of the yellow sabot.

 

[Anonymous]

What do you think of the yellow sabot.

The accessories make the ensemble, and the yellow is most appropriate for fall decorations-- perhaps as an accent to a plate of pumpkin pie. :lol:

I have not had any luck getting Spitfires to shoot in my Savages-- they drop down the bores. Doohan has, though, and he uses them with pumpkins too . . . just in a little different way. But, Doohan likes to bounce a scope off his head five times in a row, so he "ain't right." :shock:

If you are lucky enough to get them to load firmly, they should group for you. Mine are way too loose, and the bullets are not .451-- they mic .450 - .4505.

I don't get too emotionally involved with sabots, usually, but there was that one night in Vegas. 8) Anyway, the sabots are MMP proprietary sabots made for Barnes, and are very recent formula as far as I know. No sabot issue, just a potential bore-fit issue.

 

[Nic_58]

Re: .458 X & .458 original

Now for the .458 original WOW they shoot great

Glad to hear that, Eric! My bag of MMP orange sabots just came in the mail today and the Barnes Original .458's should be here in a day or so! I'm going to go pick up some N120 this afternoon. I think I've finally gotten everything together to be able to go and try this new Savage out! Got the Pocampo EZ tool, RW ventliners, Never-Seez Blue Moly, XS Power Rod, etc. 8) I need to sit down and weigh out my powder charges into the plastic vials and I should be all set! I'm REALLY looking forward to shooting the Barnes Originals in the MMP orange sabots!

 

[Anonymous]

What do you think of the yellow sabot.

The accessories make the ensemble, and the yellow is most appropriate for fall decorations-- perhaps as an accent to a plate of pumpkin pie. :lol:

I have not had any luck getting Spitfires to shoot in my Savages-- they drop down the bores. Doohan has, though, and he uses them with pumpkins too . . . just in a little different way. But, Doohan likes to bounce a scope off his head five times in a row, so he "ain't right." :shock:

If you are lucky enough to get them to load firmly, they should group for you. Mine are way too loose, and the bullets are not .451-- they mic .450 - .4505.

I don't get too emotionally involved with sabots, usually, but there was that one night in Vegas. 8) Anyway, the sabots are MMP proprietary sabots made for Barnes, and are very recent formula as far as I know. No sabot issue, just a potential bore-fit issue.

The yellow 50 x 45 Barnes sabot was developed for Barnes and MML(Knight Rifles) co-operativly. The fit or size was determined by them. The material is exactly the same as MMP 50 x 45 black, 50 x 45 black HPH 12 and most of our sabots. Obviously the color is different.