Barrel length

[Squeeze]

Is there any real advantage to a longer barrel? I have a cherokee with an old abused barrel in 45, ive been thinking about getting a barrel made in .32 for. the cherokees/senecas/cva varminters/squirrel rifles I have all have 24-28 inch barrels, but the replacements all come in 36-42 outside of sightplane do they offer any real advantage? am I better off just cutting it down and keeping the extra for a sizing die, or possible pistol barrel? does length come into play more for larget calibers? Im not really looking for HC/PC so much, and the rifle will probobly be used more for just target fun than actual hunting. but will be used for both

 

[Rattus58]

Is there any real advantage to a longer barrel? I have a cherokee with an old abused barrel in 45, ive been thinking about getting a barrel made in .32 for. the cherokees/senecas/cva varminters/squirrel rifles I have all have 24-28 inch barrels, but the replacements all come in 36-42 outside of sightplane do they offer any real advantage? am I better off just cutting it down and keeping the extra for a sizing die, or possible pistol barrel? does length come into play more for larget calibers? Im not really looking for HC/PC so much, and the rifle will probobly be used more for just target fun than actual hunting. but will be used for both

There is only one real reason for a longer barrel and that is to find the point where powder reaches complete combustion. Beyond that or short of that you have not realized the barrels potential for a given powder load, in my opinion.

A longer barrel that provides more velocity than a shorter one with the same load just means that you still have unspent powder or the power pulse of the expanding gasses haven't reached their efficiency level... if that is the proper explanation... the reality though is there... there is a point that a barrel length will continue to accelerate the bullet and then, theoretically, start to slow it down again if the barrel is too long. I've not experienced this phenomena for myself.

As far as accuracy goes, a barrel is a barrel is a barrel and if its twisted right, I personally don't think that a barrel from 18 or 20" is any less accurate than one 26 or 28 or 30.

Aloha... 8)

 

[rat trapper]

I think I'd keep the barrel the same length as the Cherokee or Seneca. If you also have a Seneca put that barrel on your Cherokee and see how you like the feel and go from there. The TC Cherokee and TC Seneca rifle were intended to be light and handy rifles not heavy target rifles.

 

[bob g]

personally it is my belief that the long barrel length is a holdover from the days of common black powder... wherein it was a much slower burning product than it is now, and certainly much much slower than our modern substitutes.

slow powders require longer barrels to get the most out of the powder.

in my experiment making bp of various recipes and processes, some of the batches have proven to be quite good up to about 100gr in barrels of 24-28 inches. once i go over the 100gr the velocity drops with increases in flame/sparks and kick,

if i had a longer barrel my bet is these same batches would increase velocity with larger than 100gr loads.

if you are planning on commercial powders i see no benefit from the use of a longer barrel save for being historically correct.

btw, i will be testing my theory shortly, as i have a hawken with a 34-36" barrel in 54 caliber... i think it will increase velocity with each increase in powder load (of my batches) up to the max sane loading.

bob g

 

[cayuga]

The other thing to keep in mind is the stock of the rifle. Its one thing to have lets say, twenty inches of barrel over hang the stock. But if you stretch that to say thirty five inches say, that is a lot of off hang. It effects the balance, and of course might cause undo stress on the stock. But I can not swear to that.

Like Rattus said.. short barrels are accurate. Look at the Knights with 22 inch barrels, the Whites with the same... very accurate rifles. Would a 42 inch make that better? Might be for open sights a better sighting plane, but accuracy, I don't think it would be more accurate.

The new rifle I ordered, I did so with a 42 inch swamped barrel. I did that more to make the rifle different then all others in my collection and to make it kind of blend to the style of the rifle. Accuracy was never a thought in the decision.

 

[Rattus58]

regular black is slower burning????

personally it is my belief that the long barrel length is a holdover from the days of common black powder... wherein it was a much slower burning product than it is now, and certainly much much slower than our modern substitutes.

slow powders require longer barrels to get the most out of the powder.

in my experiment making bp of various recipes and processes, some of the batches have proven to be quite good up to about 100gr in barrels of 24-28 inches. once i go over the 100gr the velocity drops with increases in flame/sparks and kick,

if i had a longer barrel my bet is these same batches would increase velocity with larger than 100gr loads.

if you are planning on commercial powders i see no benefit from the use of a longer barrel save for being historically correct.

btw, i will be testing my theory shortly, as i have a hawken with a 34-36" barrel in 54 caliber... i think it will increase velocity with each increase in powder load (of my batches) up to the max sane loading.

bob g

Hmmmmmm pure black in my considerable opinion, was an explosive and as such went off with a bang... :lol: I was distinctly under the impression that many of the substitutes are propellants and being such, were generally slower burning and possibly also explained the longer pressure pulses I'm of the opinion are experienced with them. NO?

 

[bob g]

well there certainly are "bangs" and then there are "BANGS" and everything in between.

considering the various methods of manufacture and the various wood species used to make the charcoal and the various methods of charring the wood, one could get black powder that was something that made more smoke than power all the way to powder that would knock down a buffalo and probably the shooter.

having made black powder with everything from wheat straw to willow that i charred myself, i have seen it all go boom and kick like a mule, however... it was only after getting a chronometer that i could tell what is going on.

speeds range from 600ft/sec to 1425ft/sec and none of them are useful in loads over about 100gr used in 24-28inch barrels.

given that many old flintlocks were used out in the sticks which left their users having to either make bp out there, or buy/swap for it from others that either had access to it or made it themselves it is plausible that a lot of it was relatively slow in velocity even though it would sure as hell kick the snot out of you.

my bet is the old dudes figured out a long time ago that long barrels made better use of the powder available to the end user.

we know now that long barrels are not needed for accuracy, and it would be quite pompous of anyone today to think that our forefathers didn't know this... at least those that built guns knew this.

if they would have had fast powder they would not have built long rifles, there would have been no need.

lastly i am not saying that they did not have some really good powders back in the day, as they certainly did, however it is much more likely the further you were from a large commercial powder production facility the slower the powder was likely to be.

my opinion only and your mileage will likely vary

bob g

 

[Dwayne]

Black Powder is not an explosive. . . Nor is pure black powder.

It may be easier to ignite because of the Charcoal, but it is not an explosive. Even in the Pyro and Explosive Arena's.

Pure black powder, in fine grain, or powder grain is flash powder. High surface area along with very low temp ignition from the C. C ignites around 250 degrees. Much much lower than the substitutes that ignite around 400+ degrees.

 

[Rattus58]

Black Powder is not an explosive. . . Nor is pure black powder.It may be easier to ignite because of the Charcoal, but it is not an explosive. Even in the Pyro and Explosive Arena's.

Pure black powder, in fine grain, or powder grain is flash powder. High surface area along with very low temp ignition from the C. C ignites around 250 degrees. Much much lower than the substitutes that ignite around 400+ degrees.

It sure isn't a propellant so what is it?

http://www.bing.com/search?q=is+black+p ... ORM=IE8SRC

Aloha..

 

[GM54-120]

Real black powder is a low explosive but the velocity of the shock wave and burn is much slower than something like nitroglycerin or RDX which are considered a high explosive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_e ... velocities
http://rense.com/general77/geddno.htm

Low explosives - Their detonation velocity rate is below 3,280 feet per second. (Black powder rate is 1,312 fps) High explosives burn or detonate at a rate of above 3,280 f.p.s. (Dynamite-about 9,000 f.p.s.; RDX - 27,500 f.p.s.)

 

[bob g]

just because our government attaches a label to black powder as an explosive and another label on pyrodex and other substitutes as propellants does not make either type of powders one thing or another.

in my opinion, there is a lot of hype and fear related to black powder, much of it wholly unfounded.

the only way it is going to explode is if you confine it, same as with pyrodex and others
it will not ignite with common levels of static electricity (wilmhurst machines and the like excluded), it is not going to ignite if you hit it with a hammer, it needs a relatively hot spark, and depending on the level of sulfur that temperature can be quite high.

this is not to say that it is possible to make black powder that might be more shock sensitive or pressure sensitive or whatever sensitive...

99% of the explosions relating to black powder production back in the day relate to good housekeeping or rather poor housekeeping standards and lack of good precautionary standards.

its no secret that i make my own black powders, and i suspect they are every bit as good as those powders commonly available back in the mid 1800's , save for maybe some stuff made by military arsenals. this is what i have found.

static will not set it off
hitting a pinch of it on an anvil with a hammer will not set it off, it will however make nice thing flakes of powder.

it takes heat! and to make it go boom it must be contained, the better it is contained the better the boom.

my powder will flash just as fast as any other powders i have compared it too, and some of it will flash faster, so it is not a slow burning powder that is the root cause that keeps it from being pressure, static sensitive.

the best powders i have made, if you put a small pile of perhaps 50gr of ffg or even fffg on a piece of newspaper, and then set the edge of the paper afire, will when ignited (and it won't ignite every time, more on that later) flash off and leave the paper with readable print after the poof!

no it doesn't flash everytime, sometimes the paper will burn down to a very small flame as it approaches the powder and simply go out right at the edge of the powder... the flame must get enough heat to the first grains of powder or its a no show.

the stuff is just not that sensitive in my opinion.

does this mean it isn't dangerous? hell no, and hell yes it is dangerous. you just work in small batches, work smart and keep your work area clean or all residue, and keep airborne dust to "none".

its the airborne dust that likely causes the vast majority of fires in powder plants across time. just as wheat dust will blow up a coop elevator, or coffee creamer, or any other product that can burn becomes explosive if it becomes airborne with the right ratio.

i realize i am beating a long winded drum, but i really think black powder has gotten a bad rap, for reasons i have stated, when talking about commercial production... as for diy'ers that is another variable that for very good reasons the owners of this forum don't want detailed discussions about procedures and recipe's.

we all know someone that could destroy a crowbar in the deep end of a swimming pool. it is this sort of person that also tries to fire a stuck projectile or a broken ramrod out of a barrel with disastrous results. it doesn't take a very good imagination to see all the horror that might befall these sorts of individuals if they were to start making their own powder.

so in conclusion, black powder is not particularly dangerous, done right with reasonable caution and good sense, to manufacture. and it is not particularly dangerous to use if used properly. black powder can be made to have a rather wide range of power and velocity when used in a rifle, and it is likely that all this was exceptionally well understood by those that made rifles back in the day.

stepping off now, before someone starts throwing tomato's and and rotten fruits at me!

bob g

 

[Dwayne]

Excellent post Bob, and 100 percent right on. . .

It was only a few years ago the government "attached" explosive to Black Powder.

Just because a label is attached to it, doesn't make it so. . .

Does the word "Automatic" attached to a Pistol make it an Automatic? No. . . it doesn't Yet so many people have used the word Automatic, and the presses have used it so much, that any pistol other than a Revolver is an automatic. . .

As well as any gun that looks like a machine gun, or looks ugly, is an assault rifle.

An explosive example is self igniting, or extremely unstable. A good example would be acitoneperoxide.

Even a smoke bomb will cause an explosion if contained. . .but it doesn't make it an explosive.

How about Dry Ice? It can easily make things explode. It doesn't make it an explosive.

Bob, excellent job. You and I could have a lot of fun together. . . I also make my own powder, and have been making for decades.

You had an excellent example how grain dust can be considered an explosive. . . with the right quantities and ratio of air, but it isn't an explosive.

Another example (which most people do not know about) is Milk Products. Truck drives must have a Hazmat license in order to transport milk products. Powdered Creamer is a excellent product for making propellents and firecrackers.

For forth of July, we put about 1 ounce of black powder in a bucket, put some plastic bags over the black powder, then pour a couple of containers of powder creamer on top of that. Light a fuse that goes to the powder and stand back. A HUGE ball of flame will be thrusted into the air.. .sometimes 20 feet high.

Sugar and KNO3 is used for Sugar Rockets. Many folks are getting into Rocketry. those little engines are expensive, but a rather large group are propelling rockets with Sugar. . . If you contain it, it will explode. And sometimes the Sugar rockets go boom because of to much containment and the orifice is to small to allow the pressure to escape fast enough to produce the thrust necessary to produce lift.

 

[Muley Hunter]

The biggest advantage to a long barrel for me is the longer sighting plane. The front sight isn't as fuzzy.

 

[paia]

The biggest advantage to a long barrel for me is the longer sighting plane. The front sight isn't as fuzzy.

My thoughts exactly. I used to love short barreled Jaegers and Hawkens in the 80's and 90's. Now that I am over 50 and need bifocals I like the front sight as far away as possible just so I can focus on it! My traditional flintlocks with open sights all have 42" to 46" barrels now.