Fishy Bullet drop results

[chyhunting]

140gr of BH209 by volume in my Pacnor 45 is getting over 2400fps with a 200gr bullet. I find it hard to believe my Savage type 209 plug is that much more efficient even in a 45cal barrel.

I wonder if the 195gr. Duplex sabot setup just doesn't seal good enough or give it the pressure it really needs. I would think there should be a bigger difference in MV between my 195gr. Bullets and my 275gr. Bullets. There's 100fps difference between my 195 and your 200. I would think your 209 BP and a better sealing bullet could explain that much difference IMO. If it means anything, the 275gr. recoils like you would think but the 195gr. hardly recoils at all really, maybe that too is due to just a bad seal. Hmm.....

 

[GM54-120]

My best guess is it has something to do with the combination of sabot/s, bullet weight and the soft 357cal bullet in a 50cal barrel.

A possible test/s would be:

A 50x40 sabot with a 200gr SST to eliminate the soft lead bullet. It might be possible the soft lead PR bullet is doing something odd with that combination and the very heavy load of Blackhorn.

A 200gr 45cal bullet in the same sabot as you used for the Parker or even a tighter sabot.

I dont have my notes from the day i was checking fps with heavy BH209 loads but i seem to recall it was well into the 2400fps+ range. That load is also quite tight in my 45cal.

 

[WV Hunter]

I've not shot alot of longer distances, but 14" drop from 100 to 200 with that powder load and bullet seems like alot to me.

 

[chyhunting]

My best guess is it has something to do with the combination of sabot/s, bullet weight and the soft 357cal bullet in a 50cal barrel.

A possible test/s would be:

A 50x40 sabot with a 200gr SST to eliminate the soft lead bullet. It might be possible the soft lead PR bullet is doing something odd with that combination and the very heavy load of Blackhorn.

A 200gr 45cal bullet in the same sabot as you used for the Parker or even a tighter sabot.

I dont have my notes from the day i was checking fps with heavy BH209 loads but i seem to recall it was well into the 2400fps+ range. That load is also quite tight in my 45cal.

That's a good idea, I have some T.C. 200 gr. Shockwaves leftover from load development, I believe they are .40 cal in a thicker .50 cal sabot but should serve the same purpose for testing. I just finished up shooting for the day ,wish I would have read this before I went out. I'll have to try that next Sunday.

 

[Dougs136Schwartz]

ENCORE50A I'm just curious . Why do you think you can't get the Parker 275 or 300 BEs to shoot out past 200 ? You like the SST /FTX bullet correct ? Is the BC that much better on the Hornady bullet ? Also do you know the jacket thickness of the SST/FTX bullet ? Sorry for off topic questions ,trying to learn all I can

 

[Dougs136Schwartz]

Clay hunting I get what your saying . You should be getting more velosity with that 200 grain bullet but your not getting a good enough seal with the Dead center sabots . Blackhorn also doesn't like light bullets as well as 300 grain class bullets . But with that said , both bullets are starting out at the same velosity so the better BC bullet (dead center) Should preform better out to 200 yards or at least as good as the Parkers . Problem is PR bullets lies very badly about Thier BC ! The only way I gain anything from shooting the dead center bullets are if they are considerably faster . Don't get me wrong , I like the recoil of the light 200 grain bullet also if I play around with my loads I can always get the dead centers to shoot but I can NEVER get the drops they claim ! If it makes you feel any better I shot a four shot group last month with some 275 BEs just under a inch at 200 yards . I have not shot the BEs much past 200 but out to 200 yards they shoot excellent in my 1 20 twist Savage/Brux 45 . I shout anywhere from 95 to 105 grains of Blackhorn in that gun .That gets me around 2400fps .

 

[ENCORE50A]

ENCORE50A I'm just curious . Why do you think you can't get the Parker 275 or 300 BEs to shoot out past 200 ? You like the SST /FTX bullet correct ? Is the BC that much better on the Hornady bullet ? Also do you know the jacket thickness of the SST/FTX bullet ? Sorry for off topic questions ,trying to learn all I can

I have no clue. I tried just about every sabot Harvester and MMP makes with both BE's. I have to give both businesses a ton of credit for working with me and all the different samples they sent. Both bullets shot "decent" at 100. After 100 they started opening up. At 300 all consistency was completely gone and they were all over the paper.

Of all the bullets I've tried to date, the SST, or Whitetail Medicine with the H5045LB sabot remains the most accurate long range bullet. I have some Match Hunters that I haven't tried yet but they would ONLY be for paper, as we just can't get the velocity to perform properly on game at range. I've tried the BOMB bullet, which didn't work. However I have to admit I'm running out of different sabots to try with the BOMB. I wanted the 290gr flat base Barnes to shoot, but that didn't work out either.
As far as the FTX, I've only shot them from the .450 Bushmaster and they are EXTREMELY accurate. I used the .450 opening day last year, as my muzzleloader Leupold was in for repairs. The bullet completely jellified the inside of a buck I took opening day. Beyond this, I don't have that much experience with the FTX and certainly not in the muzzleloader.

The ignition system on the RU and UF rifles, still are designed to shoot pellets. Although they will shoot loose BP or BPS, ignition with BH (IMO) can be debated. The breech plugs are actually a two part welded piece and flat faced. Not a single piece like most plugs and concave. Although the LRMP is hotter, it doesn't have the pressure of the 209. So I read with interest, when shooters comment that their velocity is consistent with BH from RU or UF rifles.

The best measurements I can get you (this morning) for the SST jacket:

Base thickness: .055
Step side thickness: .036
Mid side thickness: .025

 

[Dougs136Schwartz]

I'm sure you probably already know this . Parker makes a Emax that has a ..015 jacket thickness that may work for hunting although I don't know how it would shoot in a sabot . Also I have been doing a lot of shooting lately with Pittman bullets . They have a .021 jacket and are made in 275,300,325,and 350s. I have had great success with the 275s and 300s . I'm going to shoot them in the fall Friendship Nationals . If your there I'd be glad to give you some to try .

 

[Dougs136Schwartz]

I like to read your post ENCORE50A . I always seem to learn something . I have seen some of the groups that you have shot with that SST bullet ! They are amazing ! I have some 250 and 300 grain SSTS to play with but have not given them a fair chance yet . I know others have shot that bullet very well at long range .

 

[ENCORE50A]

I'm sure you probably already know this . Parker makes a Emax that has a ..015 jacket thickness that may work for hunting although I don't know how it would shoot in a sabot . Also I have been doing a lot of shooting lately with Pittman bullets . They have a .021 jacket and are made in 275,300,325,and 350s. I have had great success with the 275s and 300s . I'm going to shoot them in the fall Friendship Nationals . If your there I'd be glad to give you some to try .

With the weather here the way its been I've stayed completely off the range. Up until 2 days ago, when we finally got 1.5" of rain, we'd only had 2.63" since the snow left. The biting flies will carry you away and they've kept me off on my own range. Which means I most likely won't be at Friendship without some practice at long range. Shooting long range means a trip to the club and that range is in the middle of a cedar swamp. I'd be lucky to survive.
However not shooting has at least saved me a few bucks. Shooting this thing can get expensive, especially when you only get 16 shots per container. I buy by the case. Midway had a sale on bullets, so I stocked up on them. On the other hand........ the new toy has been generating an outflow.

FYI.... All those tight groups were shot with a full rest. Not just using a front rest and shoulder like Friendship.

 

[Dougs136Schwartz]

Still takes a hell of a shooter to shoot those groups even if it is off of bags . I have only shot once past 100 yards since the spring nationals . I do all my practising at 100 yards . I hope that does not bite me in the butt ! ! ! Although this weekend is the Kentucky Challenge . I was gonna shoot smokless there but maybe it would be better for me to test my Blackhorn loads at some further distances . At what distance do you do most of your practising ?

 

[ENCORE50A]

Still takes a hell of a shooter to shoot those groups even if it is off of bags . I have only shot once past 100 yards since the spring nationals . I do all my practising at 100 yards . I hope that does not bite me in the butt ! ! ! Although this weekend is the Kentucky Challenge . I was gonna shoot smokless there but maybe it would be better for me to test my Blackhorn loads at some further distances . At what distance do you do most of your practising ?

Actually I enjoy shooting 400 more than any other distance. Maybe its because I've somehow lucked out tightening up groups at that range, plus it FORCES me consider and determine the wind. For some reason I think of it like archery. If I practice at longer ranges, it "should" make closer ranges easier. However... punching out the "X" at 50 or 100, even 200 just shooting from the shoulder can be frustrating.
If you head to the KC, take the BH. Don't shoot from a sled or rear bag, as it'll do you no good at Friendship. Its nice to punch tiny little holes or groups, but no disrespect intended, most of those guys use sleds or much more expensive full rests. Challenge them to a shoulder shoot :wink:

 

[Dougs136Schwartz]

Makes sense . I use to do the same thing when I competitively shot in Archery. Thanks for the advice !

 

[tpcollins]

In general, lighter bullets start out very fast and shoot flat to a certain range and then lose speed and energy quickly, thus dropping faster at longer ranges. Heavier bullets, although starting out slower but with much more energy due to the added mass, keeps the bullet from slowing down as fast as a light bullet would (assuming similar shape). Also, the heavier bullet is apt to be more aerodynamic (higher BC), which further helps the heavier bullet maintain energy and speed.

Run your data through a ballistics program.

Would there ever be a situation where at 100 yards or even 200 yards where the heavier bullet (using the same load) would impact higher on the target than the lighter bullet out the same ML and same scope settings? Thanks.

 

[ENCORE50A]

In general, lighter bullets start out very fast and shoot flat to a certain range and then lose speed and energy quickly, thus dropping faster at longer ranges. Heavier bullets, although starting out slower but with much more energy due to the added mass, keeps the bullet from slowing down as fast as a light bullet would (assuming similar shape). Also, the heavier bullet is apt to be more aerodynamic (higher BC), which further helps the heavier bullet maintain energy and speed.

Run your data through a ballistics program.

Would there ever be a situation where at 100 yards or even 200 yards where the heavier bullet (using the same load) would impact higher on the target than the lighter bullet out the same ML and same scope settings? Thanks.

That's a difficult question. Requires ciphering....
Which bullet would the zero be set with and at what range? Lighter or heavier? How much bullet weight difference? Velocity change?

I think there would have to be a considerable difference in BC. Say a 200gr bullet and a BC of .180 and a 300gr bullet with a BC of .280. At 100, both bullets POI could be almost identical, assuming only a loss of 100fps. However using the same data for 100yds and that 100yd zero, there could be a difference where the heavier bullet could impact higher at 200. Using the same scope settings, zeroed for 100yds.

200gr bullet with a BC of .180, using 2,100fps......... approx. 10.62" drop @200yds
compared to a
300gr bullet with a BC of .28 using 2,000fps........... approx. 9.87" drop @200yds If you slowed this bullet to 1930fps, drop would be approximately the same.

Is this what you're asking???

 

[chyhunting]

Well I think it's definitely the 195 gr. PR bullet/duplex sabot causing my issue. I shot today, Saturday this weekend. For testing purposes I shot the TC shockwave 200 gr. with the same powder charge as the PR. 5gr. heavier and an average 92 fps faster and 7.5 inch less drop at 200 than the PR., Equates to a 100 yd. Zero and 6.5 inch drop from 100 to 200. Also tried the 250gr. BEs.....very nice. I have some pictures of the groups for all of these bullets but I can't figure out how to post a picture. Any help?

 

[ENCORE50A]

Well I think it's definitely the 195 gr. PR bullet/duplex sabot causing my issue. I shot today, Saturday this weekend. For testing purposes I shot the TC shockwave 200 gr. with the same powder charge as the PR. 5gr. heavier and an average 92 fps faster and 7.5 inch less drop at 200 than the PR., Equates to a 100 yd. Zero and 6.5 inch drop from 100 to 200. Also tried the 250gr. BEs.....very nice. I have some pictures of the groups for all of these bullets but I can't figure out how to post a picture. Any help?

Open up a Photobucket account (free) and upload your photos. Click on the photo you want to share, then use the bottom link on the right of the photo. Click on that link and it will auto copy the photo, then paste it here.
Glad you worked things out.

 

[tpcollins]

However using the same data for 100yds and that 100yd zero, there could be a difference where the heavier bullet could impact higher at 200. Using the same scope settings, zeroed for 100yds.

200gr bullet with a BC of .180, using 2,100fps......... approx. 10.62" drop @200yds
compared to a
300gr bullet with a BC of .28 using 2,000fps........... approx. 9.87" drop @200yds If you slowed this bullet to 1930fps, drop would be approximately the same.

Is this what you're asking???

Basically yes. I'm not sure of the caliber and the distance but my brother-in-law was shooting a particular bullet he reloaded and it hit a specific spot at a specific distance. Then he shot a heavier bullet at the same distance without touching the scope and he said it impacted higher.

Since he was reloading these himself, I had to assume the heavier bullet would have had a smaller powder charge which is the norm based on my reloading experience, and my thinking was due to the slower velocity, it should cover less ground by the time it fell to earth, and not impact higher.

I asked this on the Firing Line years ago and they said the heavier bullet should not impact higher. But after reading your post, I'm not sure of the specifics for his shoot - if he was originally sighted in at 100 yards and shot at 200 yards, then maybe BC is the reason he saw the heavier bullet impact higher. Thanks for the explanation though.

 

[chyhunting]

First try posting a pic, I still can't see how to post the pic itself and not the link.

http://s346.photobucket.com/user/chyhun ... p.jpg.html

http://s346.photobucket.com/user/chyhun ... m.jpg.html

http://s346.photobucket.com/user/chyhun ... h.jpg.html

100 yd. 3 shot BE 275
http://s346.photobucket.com/user/chyhun ... v.jpg.HTML

200 yd. 3 shot BE 275
http://s346.photobucket.com/user/chyhun ... j.jpg.html

250yd. 5shot 1" flyer" BE 275
http://s346.photobucket.com/user/chyhun ... t.jpg.html

 

[ENCORE50A]

First try posting a pic, I still can't see how to post the pic itself and not the link.

http://s346.photobucket.com/user/chyhun ... p.jpg.html

http://s346.photobucket.com/user/chyhun ... m.jpg.html

http://s346.photobucket.com/user/chyhun ... h.jpg.html

100 yd. 3 shot BE 275
http://s346.photobucket.com/user/chyhun ... v.jpg.HTML

200 yd. 3 shot BE 275
http://s346.photobucket.com/user/chyhun ... j.jpg.html

250yd. 5shot 1" flyer" BE 275
http://s346.photobucket.com/user/chyhun ... t.jpg.html

THAT'S the way one of the Remington Ultimates with a good barrel should shoot at distance. :yeah:
It took Remington awhile but, it appears they finally got it together with their barrels. I had one (to setup) of the first and it was total junk. Remington knew some bad barrels got out, but with "social media" today, it hurt the sales on that rifle. However it did bring down the price. Your targets are matching targets a couple of the MI guys are shooting at range. IIWM...... I'd still shoot and hunt with at least the 275gr.

With this link open an a thread started, if you click on one of your links, you'll see a box that appears (Share your photo) at the bottom right of the photo. Where it says .. IMG .. click once there. You'll notice it turns color and says, "Copied". Back here in your post, just right click and "PASTE".