I'm Confused

[Deerhunter51]

:scratch: I just joined your forum last night and posted 1 post, but i've been reading alot and now I am very confused. I Bought a CVA wolf last year and was told to use either Triple seven pellets or Shockley Gold and use powerbelt bullets. I was also told to use 2 Pellets (100) grains if I wasn't going to shoot over 100 yards and use 3 pellets (150) grains out to 150+ yards, so I sighted it in starting at 25 yards and got it to hit dead on, then I shot at 100 yards and had a reasonible group at 1" high at 100 yards. Now in all my reading I don't know if I should be using powder or pellets and what size bullets. To be honest I haven,t done alo of range shooting just sighting it in, and am happy with what I was shooting, but I haven't shot at a deer yet, but did shoot at a cayote at 150 yards with 2 pellets and aimed at the top of his head and found where my bullet hit about 10 yards short. I think i would have hit him if I had used a 150 grain load, assuming after reading your forum the bullet would have held together. Please advise me if what I am doing is right or should I try something different.

 

[exMember]

Sporting good shops and even the company and such will tell you to use pellets and 3 pellets. I started this forum to help those who have been misguided by those others.

You can use 150gr pellets if the target is 140+ yards away but the truth is, Most rifles do not do well with 3 pellet loads and suffer from poor accuracy. Even 2 pellets in some rifles doesnt offer the best accuracy.

Using Loose form powder will allow you to adjust 5 to 10 grains at a time to your powder charge and you may shoot the most accurate with say for example, 85 grains of powder, VS with pellets you either use Two 50gr pellets or One 50gr pellet and a 30.

Loose powder is a lot cheaper too, more shots for your money and its consistent.

Shockeys gold is horrible powder, its the same stuff as american pioneer and sucks up moisture like a sponge.

Pyrodex is by far my most favorite blackpowder sub to use as its cheap and consistent and very reliable in the field.

Some will argue that its corrosive, hard to clean, blah , blah blah. Truth is, at the end of the day, Clean your rifle and its going to last you a life time.

With a 295-245 grain powerbelt Aerotip and 80gr Pyrodex RS *loose* and sighted dead on @ 100 yards, your bullet will impact 7" low @ 150 yards.

If you were loaded with 100gr and either the 245 or 295 AT and a deer walked within 50 yards of you, this will be your results,
Top to bottom-
100gr
90gr
80gr

What is your current load that you are shooting? I can help you out a lot more if i knew what you are set up for.

 

[corey0127781]

I will do the powder v pellets debate.

pellets:
pro:
easy loading.
almost accurate out of box.
nothing need other than an 209 primer and an gun.

con:
only 100 pellets in an box (50 shots per box)
pricey ($39 per box in my area)

powder:
pro:
costume loads
more per pound (85 to 100 shots)
cost much less (10.50 to 39.99)

con:
need powder measures
can lose some while you load the gun and ready loads.

try to find 30gr pellets and use some 50gr pellets. 80grs, sounds like an good over all load no matter what type of powerbelt you use.

Admin,
you have an brake down on idle loads for powerbelt

 

[exMember]

The only light weight powerbelt i would use 2 pellets on would be the 270gr and 300gr Platinum. This is based on close distance shots, 50 yards and under.

Even a centerfire bullet can fail terribly if its not the correct bullet for a close range shot.

 

[Deerhunter51]

Thanks everyone for info, this helps me alot. Admin I am currently using a 50 cal 223 grain copper series aerotip powerbelt bullet with 100 grains (2pellets) of Triple Seven, However I just loaded my last bullet today and I talked to a friend at my hunting club and he said he had a whole box of 295 grain powerbelts that I could have so from now on I will be using these and I'm going to take everybody's advice and buy some of the pyrodex powder that you recommended. Fortunately rifle season starts Saturday so that will give me some time to buy the other powder and measurers and do some target practicing and using different loads. If you don't like the 295 grain powerbelt please suggest what size bullet I may need. I want to hunt more with my muzzleloader this year and I'm from Alabama so I have plenty of time. Our season starts this Saturday Nov. 22nd and goes out January 31st 2009. (71Days). Thanks again to every one who responded. Oh I meant to tell you sometimes i will have shots out to 200 yds. How much powder would you recommend for those ranges. I,m much less confused noe that I finally found some other muzzleloaders hunters that can help.

 

[corey0127781]

same charges. lol

could you get them in close then 200yrds. or get yourself in closer. that is one hell of a long shot even for centerfire rifles.

my max distance is 110yrds that I am willing to even think about.

looking if you have it zeroed at 100yrds with the charge you have using now.

200yrds could drop 9.77in (round to 10in) with an energy of 1,036 and an velocity of 1318

 

[Deerhunter51]

Corey
No that's what i'm telling you all, I'm new at this and was told to use 2pellets for 100 yards in and 3 pellets out to 150 yards plus. so I,m asking how far should I try a shot? On the hunting shows on TV they shoot them all the time at 200 yards or at least that's what they say. It,s like my bow, some people shoot out to 60 yards or more, me I don't shoot no more than 25 yards. So what your saying is don't take a shot over 100 yards. Thanks

 

[corey0127781]

yes 200+ yrds reachable, I would not take that shot. mine last year,
the only deer I took, a double shot, first one at 80yrds, second maybe
10 to 20yrds.

I have not worked anything past 100yrds. in fact, last year my cut off was 75yrds.

just keep in mind, find a distance that you find comfortable at.

btw, the numbers I gave ya will help you work on 200yrds remember wind plays alot into it as well.

missed one this year my self at 110yrds because of wind. 75grs of triple 7 and 245gr at.

200yrds = lots a range time.

sorry did not mine for my last post to come out rude

 

[cayugad]

The point is, how far can you shoot accurate? If you practice and can hit consistently out at 150 yards, and your loaded with 100 grains of pellets and a powerbelt, go ahead and shoot. If the whitetail deer is 100 yards with that same load, go ahead and shoot. Even closer. As Frontier Gander the adminstrator is trying to tell you, from his vast experience with powerbelts, even 100 grains of powder is not needed to kill a whitetail deer.

One problem many new shooters face today is manufacturer's hype. They sell magnum rifles, that shoot magnum loads, and you need to own a magnum rifle. What a crock of bull. I was shooting deer with 80 grains of powder and a roundball for years. Then some hunting muzzleloader expert claimed a roundball is not lethal and should not be used past 50 yards. Well that tells me what that expert really knows. I have friends that shot truck loads of deer past 50 yards with round balls.

Its funny that Powerbelt talks about how their projectile can handle magnum loads, yet when you ask them about a powerbelt fragmenting they suggest you drop down to 70-90 grains of powder. Why, because the big charges is not needed. White tails are easy to punch a hole in.

If your rifle is accurate with 100 grains, I am sure it will take out a deer. Just know your range and put that thing in a good spot through the vitals and let the bullet do the rest of the work.

 

[exMember]

The 295 is one of my favorites. It will fragment with a 50 yard shot and that 100gr charge but if you go for the lungs and stay away from the shoulder. you will be fine.

For 200 yard shooting, You will use 3 pellets. The bullet that i would recommend is the 338gr platinum or even the 300gr platinum. These are beefed up bullets but the only thing i have to warn you about is that they will leave a lot of damage to the animal so its important to hit them in the lungs or you WILL lose a lot of meat. Check out the Field Test area on the forum and you will see what the 270gr platinum did with 95gr triple 7 3F. Pretty impressive!

With the 223gr Powerbelt, I have not shot those yet but i would easily say to max out your load at 80gr and you shouldn't have to worry.

 

[saxman]

I would say that any advice you get from sporting goods sales people should be suspect at best.
This guy could have been selling shoes at pay less last week and has maybe never even held a ML.I'm not tring to put down all sales people,I'm sure some are very knowldgeable but they work for a company who sells what they sell.
They will push what they are overstocked on and give advice based on that.
You bought a good gun that is very capable of doing the job and the Powerbelts when shot right for the conditions will NOT let you down
My best advice is what I have recieved from members here and on other sites
use all this info as a guide,get out to the range and work up a load that YOUR gun likes,choose a Powerbelt for YOUR conditions. and dont get caught in the trap (like I did) of MAGNUM muzzleloader charges of 150 grains and such.You are just burning powder and making them richer IMHO.
There are allot of great TV folks out there but they are selling products and not all bad but dont get caught up in it.

There is allot of negitive talk about Powerbelts and I can understand some of it,mostly because they are not shooting them right and they want to shoot 150 grains like Greg Ritz does, HOG WASH.
I fired two PB's in 2007 and killed two deer,I learned from those kills and have no problem slinging a PB at anything walking because I know I need to work up a load for that bullet.

There is a plus side to all this and that is being familiar with your gun and confidant that you and it together can get it done.

I try lots of bullets and mees with about everything that comes out bu MOST of the time I go hunting (not all) I have a Powerbelt in my gun
I KNOW what it will do when I do my part.

Sorry so long winded

 

[cayugad]

I always laugh when I remember the incident at a Wal Mart a couple years back. This woman was in Christmas shopping. She wanted to get her son a muzzleloader. The all knowing sales man was trying to sell her the top of the line, but she really was not interested. He then finally showed her a Bobcat in .50 caliber. She seemed to like that model because to her, that was a muzzleloader.

She then asked him about powder, and he set a box of Pyrodex RS pellets on the counter. And she asked if there was anything else she needed. He then set some musket top hats on the counter. My eyes about bugged out here. And finally he set some Hornady XTP's 300 grain on the counter. He then asked her if there was anything else she needed and she kind of stood there. I then stepped in and spoke up (I just could not take it anymore).

I told her the person behind the counter had no idea what he was selling. He seemed shocked. Actually kind of upset. I then told her that pellets would not work in the rifle she selected and that instead she needed a jug of Pyrodex RS. I then pointed out that the nipple on that rifle was a #11 and that musket top hats would not work. She needed some of their Remington 40% hotter #11 caps. I also picked out a short starter for her, a loading jag, patches, and a see through volume powder measure. And I told her she might be better off with some simple round balls and patch for starters. So I got some pre lubed patches down and some .490 Hornady Ball.

Now she was really confused and the salesman was getting upset. He told her he shoots pellets all the time. So I asked him what kind of rifle he shot. He kind of stood there and then pointed at an Optima. I then said, pellets are fine in there because of the 209 ignition. He then corrected me and told me he shot musket caps. So we got an Optima off the shelf and I asked him to show us how he might load a musket cap in that... Well he was not a happy person.

So I then took all the stuff and basically showed the woman how she would load the rifle if it were out of the box. I told her to use 80 grains of powder, using the measure. Dump that, and then how to set the patch and ball. And finally how to cap the rifle. I then told her that she would have to teach her son how to shoot his own rifles. She liked that idea of showing her son how to shoot.

The salesman then asked me if I had ever shot a muzzleloader in a rather snotty way. So I told him I owned over thirty muzzleloaders, of all kinds, brands, calibers, and sort. And that the year before, I took three deer with a Bobcat (although mine is a Mountain Stalker) in .54 caliber shooting the same load. It drilled them deer dead. I also told her how the weight the stock on the rifle so it would not kick her poor kid to death.

She then pointed to all the stuff I had selected for her. Thanked me and made her purchase. After she left, the salesman asked me if he could help me. I told him what I wanted. He never offered me any advise.

 

[swampratt]

That is a good story cayugad.
Poor souls out there being led down the wrong path..
I too have a bobcat , 2 of them and in the .50 caliber...
I load mine with 90 grains pyrodex and 295 grain pb hollow points copper series.

Practice shooting and a 200 yrd kill shot can happen.
At close range with that load the bullet will fragment inside the deer.
It will punch through ribs and destroy lungs...I would not go over 90 grains pyrodex RS. I feel that is pushing the envelope.

Rifle season starts tomorrow and will be shooting the 30-30...and that is another under rated weapon. Mine is sighted dead on at 250 YRDS

 

[cayugad]

Our modern season starts tomorrow morning as well. I will still be using a muzzleloader. I think the White M97 in .451 with a 2-7x32mm Nikon Pro Staff scope on it. I will only be shooting 70 grains of Triple Se7en 3f and a 460 grain conical. All my shots are close so it will be no problem. I hope to shoot a buck and refuse to shoot a doe on my land. So the first legal buck can end my whole hunting season... time will tell.

 

[Deerhunter51]

Thanks to everyone for all the information, I feel better about it all now and am just glad I found this sight. I did exactly what you'all said ,I took advise from someone that probably had never even shot a muzzleloader. I remember once i went into a very reputable gun and tackle shop and I ask this young man a question about some fishing lure, and he kinda leaned over to me and said "Sir let me tell you something, You know more about about fishing than everybody in this store put together does". So I guess I should have thought back on this moment and realized I needed to find someone who knew about muzzleloaders instead of just taking his advice. I'll keep in touch and let you know how everything goes. Good Luck to everyone this year.

 

[exMember]

Good luck to you.

 

[swampratt]

Thanks .
Good luck to you
Hope everyone gets to put some meat in the freezer...

 

[VAKnight]

Wow...2 pellets for 100 yards...3 pellets for 150 yards. That was a first for me. One thing most people need to understand is that muzzle loading is more an artform than a science. Each rifle, powder load, and projectile behave very differently from rifle to rifle.

Please note that all my ML's are 45 caliber.

For instance, I have a wonderful Optima that shoots 1" groups with 150 gr 777 and 275 gr HP powerbelts. If you lighten the load, switch primers, use any other powerbelt, or even go to loose powder, the group opens up to over 6". My only guess here is that the rifle has a slight overbore and the max charge plus heaviest projectile causes good expansion to engage the bore.

Switch to my CVA Staghorns. I picked up 2 - 45 cals from Midway a couple years ago when they had a closeout special on them for $49 bucks (one hell of a deal). I stuck simple 4X simmons scopes on them, tried a basic 225 gr HP Powerbelt and 2 - 50 gr 777 pellets, and got amazing groups...holes touching! Boy, I should have picked up more of the rifles...light, friendly and accurate!

Please note I have 4 sons...when I get a good deal I go for bulk...for my future hunters.

The moral of the story is different rifles of the same caliber will take different load combinations to make them happy. The 200 yard shots you see on TV shows are often to try to brag about a product that sponsors the TV show. All to often, you are just looking at marketing disguised as premium hunting.

It is not often where I hunt that you have a 200 yard shot. Most deer kills are within 75 yards. I recommend that you get good to 100 yards and just sit happy. Past that, try some range time at 125, 150, 175 and 200 yards with a ML sighed in at 100. You will appreciate the serious drop the projectile has and think twice about the really long shots.