More powder or tighter fit

[jevyod]

I was out testing my muzzleloader again today. I had cast some 45 caliber 300 grain pistol bullets to shoot in the Harvester crush rib sabots Gun is a CVA Wolf with a 1:28 twist. I shot groups at 100 yards with 65, 70, 75, and 80 grains of T7 fffg powder. I had sized the bullets in a .452 sizer, they ended up at .451 inches. At 65 grains I shot a 3 inch group, 70 was 2.5, 75 was 3.75 and 80 was 3.5. Not sure if I should keep working up or if I should work on tightening the bullet sabot fit. It seemed rather loose to me, I could push the bullet/sabot down using my thumb and 1st 2 fingers. Not sure, is that too loose a fit? I also don't know if the shot sabots tell a tale, but they were mostly found 60-75 feet from the muzzle. I had been shooting a tighter combo earlier where sabots we're found 120-150 feet away.
So like I said, where would you go next? Increase powder charge in 5 grain increments up to 100-110 grain range, or would I be better off bumping my bullet size up? I cast these myself, and before I thought about it I sized all 125 down to .451. I could try them as cast which is more like .4535. Alloy is. 1:20 if it matters. Thanks!

 

[jevyod]

Forgot to mention, I measured the bullet/sabot combo with my calipers, and they were showing .500-.501

 

[Fullbore92]

I’d start with a tighter fit. Since you already sized them, I’d try a different sabot like an MMP24 to get a tighter fit.

 

[HC]

You can knurl the bullets to increase the diameter. The sweet spot on the powder is going to be around 100 grs volume .

 

[ElDiablo]

An MMP HPH24 will be slightly larger or go to a HPH12. HPH12 is the larger of those two by about 2 thousandths.

Just measured a few loaded with a .452 bullet:

CR .502”
HPH24 .503
HPH12 .505

Yes, sounds way too loose though. I’d try a larger diameter bullet and maybe knurl it as well.

Those sabots shouldn’t be going that far down range. I usually find mine 20-50 feet away. They should separate immediately out of the muzzle for best accuracy.

 

[white eagle]

sounds like you need bigger boolits
if you can re-cast and size differently that is what I would try first
you most accurate group is a good starting point adjust your charge weights from there

 

[Ninering62]

I was out testing my muzzleloader again today. I had cast some 45 caliber 300 grain pistol bullets to shoot in the Harvester crush rib sabots Gun is a CVA Wolf with a 1:28 twist. I shot groups at 100 yards with 65, 70, 75, and 80 grains of T7 fffg powder. I had sized the bullets in a .452 sizer, they ended up at .451 inches. At 65 grains I shot a 3 inch group, 70 was 2.5, 75 was 3.75 and 80 was 3.5. Not sure if I should keep working up or if I should work on tightening the bullet sabot fit. It seemed rather loose to me, I could push the bullet/sabot down using my thumb and 1st 2 fingers. Not sure, is that too loose a fit? I also don't know if the shot sabots tell a tale, but they were mostly found 60-75 feet from the muzzle. I had been shooting a tighter combo earlier where sabots we're found 120-150 feet away.
So like I said, where would you go next? Increase powder charge in 5 grain increments up to 100-110 grain range, or would I be better off bumping my bullet size up? I cast these myself, and before I thought about it I sized all 125 down to .451. I could try them as cast which is more like .4535. Alloy is. 1:20 if it matters. Thanks!

I don't think that its the fit of the bullet/sabot combination that is blowin your groups out like that. I have a .45 Accura V2 & my hunting load is a .40 bullet in a LBCR sabot. When I first started testing .40 bullets & sabots in this gun, all the bullets i got came with MMP sabots. My gun shot them terribly, wouldn't even " group " at 50yds. I switched them all out with HLBCR's & changed nuthin else. Now with the CVA overbores, these bullet/sabots load just like what you are describing. NOt " sloppy loose " but require very little downforce to seat them. Now, the gun can shoot sub MOA at 200yds.
Try switching sabots & see what happens.

 

[Blacksheep]

Most CVA ‘s that I’ve shot seem to have a sweet spot between 505-506 diameter.

 

[Mnt monkey]

Harvester black and a fury 250,is my accuracy initial load I shoot in all cva accuracy mrs I shoot,, many of them have been very loose fits and still the results of been phenomenal and know that my same counter to a lot of opinions on a tight bullet bore fit also when I'm shooting bore riders for instance the other day shooting a 400 grain Northern Precision bullet they were size way too loose I had to walk out and lay the gun down in the rest to keep it from falling off the charge the gun still put two bullets touching with no wad, keep experimenting and keep trying new bullet sabot combinations you will find what works maybe it's tight and maybe it's not so tight try some other bullets besides what you've made yourself just to help you understand what your rifle likes and then maybe go back to those you make yourself.

 

[snapbang]

Does the Wolf have a QLA muzzle????? I think the solution was to use a ballistic bridge. From MMP. I think those group sizes are typical from that muzzle type. And I think many have solves the accuracy issue with those ballistic bridges.

 

[jevyod]

It does have the QLA muzzle. This is the first I heard about needing the ballistic bridge, is there another alternative that would work similar but be cheaper? (trying to get away from spending 35 cents a shot just on sabots)

 

[smokepolehall]

I was out testing my muzzleloader again today. I had cast some 45 caliber 300 grain pistol bullets to shoot in the Harvester crush rib sabots Gun is a CVA Wolf with a 1:28 twist. I shot groups at 100 yards with 65, 70, 75, and 80 grains of T7 fffg powder. I had sized the bullets in a .452 sizer, they ended up at .451 inches. At 65 grains I shot a 3 inch group, 70 was 2.5, 75 was 3.75 and 80 was 3.5. Not sure if I should keep working up or if I should work on tightening the bullet sabot fit. It seemed rather loose to me, I could push the bullet/sabot down using my thumb and 1st 2 fingers. Not sure, is that too loose a fit? I also don't know if the shot sabots tell a tale, but they were mostly found 60-75 feet from the muzzle. I had been shooting a tighter combo earlier where sabots we're found 120-150 feet away.
So like I said, where would you go next? Increase powder charge in 5 grain increments up to 100-110 grain range, or would I be better off bumping my bullet size up? I cast these myself, and before I thought about it I sized all 125 down to .451. I could try them as cast which is more like .4535. Alloy is. 1:20 if it matters. Thanks!

I am curious have you tried an op wad to help seal ?

 

[jevyod]

No I have not, but was wondering if that may help. Were you thinking like a felt wad, some other material?

 

[smokepolehall]

No I have not, but was wondering if that may help. Were you thinking like a felt wad, some other material?

I sometimes use the cardboard over powder, the dry wool wads, cotton balls. One may work better than the other but your rifle will let you know which it likes

 

[LAUDY1962]

An MMP HPH24 will be slightly larger or go to a HPH12. HPH12 is the larger of those two by about 2 thousandths.

Just measured a few loaded with a .452 bullet:

CR .502”
HPH24 .503
HPH12 .505

Yes, sounds way too loose though. I’d try a larger diameter bullet and maybe knurl it as well.

Those sabots shouldn’t be going that far down range. I usually find mine 20-50 feet away. They should separate immediately out of the muzzle for best accuracy.

Eldiablo is right on spot here.

 

[Ninering62]

An MMP HPH24 will be slightly larger or go to a HPH12. HPH12 is the larger of those two by about 2 thousandths.

Just measured a few loaded with a .452 bullet:

CR .502”
HPH24 .503
HPH12 .505

Yes, sounds way too loose though. I’d try a larger diameter bullet and maybe knurl it as well.

Those sabots shouldn’t be going that far down range. I usually find mine 20-50 feet away. They should separate immediately out of the muzzle for best accuracy.

When I tried MMP sabots in my Accura V2 .45 they were nowhere to be found & shots did not group at all even at close range. I think the sabots were staying on the bullets all the way to the target. When I switched to LBCR's & immediately saw the kind of accuracy I demand in my guns and all the sabots are uniformly on the ground ( like hand dropped ) at 15' in front of my bench. My chrony sits at 20' from the bench.

 

[Swamp]

Jevyod, as others have stated, knurl them! I cast and shoot the LEE 44 Cal 310 gr (.430") pistol bullet with green crushed rib sabots, and was having ok results until a member here (ElDiablo) suggested knurling them. WOW what a difference that makes! These babies shoot now! The problem with the cast pistol bullets is that there's very little bearing surface from the bullet to the sabot, and they are slipping when fired. The sabot spins but the bullet not so much. Knurl them up and see how it works for you.

 

[MrTom]

My Accura V2 will send sabots pretty far down range if the velocity is not getting up there a bit. As soon as I got the charge with a 250 to 300 grain bullet to around 100-110 grains by volume of T7, same as with Bh209, the groups tightened considerably, and sabot travel was under 15 yards. I was shooting jacketed bullets though. For cast lead I agree to the knurling as that shiny lead will maybe slip in the sabot at 1:28 unless the fit is very tight.

 

[HC]

I’d cut the mold to eliminate the grease groves and gas check. That would more than double the the bearing surface. Using pure lead and a stout charge of power, the bullet will obturate into the slits of the sabot.

 

[Swamp]

I’d cut the mold to eliminate the grease groves and gas check. That would more than double the the bearing surface. Using pure lead and a stout charge of power, the bullet will obturate into the slits of the sabot.

They sure do obturate in a sabot. This is one of my LEE 430 cast bullets after retrieving from my bullet sand trap.