Need some help or advice please.

[JeffB1961]

Wrong. Volume never changes, weight can and will.

how can the weight change ? what can cause it outside of loss or absorption of moisture it the charge isn't sealed between weighing and shooting ?

 

[Martin JV]

This is my humble 2 cents:

80 grains of BH seems to provide PLENTY of pop when hurling a 295gr bullet at deer or elk.
That’s a lot of kinetic energy downrange at 1600-1900 feet/sec.

(At least, I think it is… but then, I’m a bow hunter at heart..:-/ —}->

I’d back off that BH, and try sabots.

I have the same gun; nitride; with an inexpensive Burris scope, and I’m getting 1” groups all day at 50 yards, grouping about 1” high at 50 yards.
Shooting 80gr BH by volume and 300gr Barnes Expanders in Harvester Crush Rib sabots.

Good luck.

 

[Superman2318]

Thanks for all the info guys. Im stuck between a rock and a hard place with being out of range time. The good news is its not quite as bad at the 88gr. About 4.5 inches. Its will work being that i only have 30-50 yard shots. But i will be putting in some work with it when i get home. I arrived at the 92gr by weight because when i first went to BH i weighed 90gr without studying the charts, (rookie mistake) because i had always shot 100gr of pellets. It was dead nuts with the mentioned Konus so thats what i shot with 250gr SST low drags. When i actually started studying when i changed to the PB295's because i wanted to be above 2000fps, i was shocked at the 84 gr recommendation, but again, it was dead nuts, so thats what i shot. now this season, its a different story.

 

[BadgerRidge]

You can monitor the flash hole.size with pin gages... Also could retrofit a vent liner in over buying new breech plugs... Flash hole erosion is real and has real accuracy effects.

Do not go over 120gr by volume of Blackhorn209. I'd bet if you shot that bullet over snow and worked up from 80gr y volume, you'd find unburnt powder before you hit 120grby volume..

Also sabots seal better and the instructions on the bottle will tell you to use sabots. Pressure leaks can cause accuracy issues too.

 

[Pathfinder60]

I have an Optima V2 thats about 6 years old. It has been a tack driver since the day i bought it. Before last hunting season i upgraded the Konus scope that came on it to a Leupold VX Freedom 4x12x40. Its not a ML specific optic, but it sighted in and held a 2 inch or better group shooting 92gr by weight of blackhorn 209 and powerbelt 295gr hollowpoints. Went out this season to insure it was on, and its all over the place. 6 to 8 inches random. Everything is the same. I have insured my scope mounts were tight, cleaned the breach, primers are coming out clean, Barrel looks as clean as can be. Any idea what might be causing this? Could the ML have broken the scope? Im at a loss.

What was wrong with the Konus that you removed it?

 

[Superman2318]

What was wrong with the Konus that you removed it?

I just didn't like the extra hold points in the view. Then I caught the LP on sale and bought one. I still have it. Probably will be putting it back on.

 

[Okie Hog]

Muzzleloaders are tough on them.

Especially with heavy loads.

 

[dwm]

If you’re only shooting 30 or 50 yards, why the heavy loads.seems like a waste of expensive powder.my heaviest load is 110 grains of 777 in my 52 and it hits plenty hard.90 grains in my 45 guns

 

[Superman2318]

If you’re only shooting 30 or 50 yards, why the heavy loads.seems like a waste of expensive powder.my heaviest load is 110 grains of 777 in my 52 and it hits plenty hard.90 grains in my 45 guns

it wasn't originally. I used to hunt in South Ga where you have long lanes to shoot down. Now im in North Tenn where im hunting mountain sides in the woods. But like i said, it was dead nuts, so i didnt change. I also only used to have about 3 days to hunt ML season, but now i get 10-14. So im really investing the time in it now and learning through this little deal.

 

[BadgerRidge]

how can the weight change ? what can cause it outside of loss or absorption of moisture it the charge isn't sealed between weighing and shooting ?

I believe what Mr. Tom was trying to help folks understand: volume to weight ratio changes with lots/bottles of BlackHorn209. And you don't know the exact ratio until you throw some by volume then weigh them...

The powder manufacturer has warned in the past that they work each lot to be volumetrically equivalent to black powder. Plenty of other posts you can search up on this site show folks have experienced differences lot to lot of the volume to weight ratio when changing lots. Do a search or two; you will have hours of reading here.

As the manufacturer's instructions show that you should go by volume with BlackHorn209, its generally accepted as a best practice to work up loads by volume. Then if you must go by weight: weigh the charge (that is allowable by volume) and only use that weight to volume ratio for that bottle/lot.

You may hear 70gr weight = 100gr by volume... but its not always 100% accurate. The best safe way to do it is start by volume then weigh it, then repeat and average and then know for sure for that bottle/lot what ratio to use... and never go over the max charge of 120 gr by volume (says on the bottle) and never go over your rifle's manual's listing of max charge!

Your mileage may vary, but the advice above it safest and meant to help keep you safe.

 

[JeffB1961]

"..... Volume never changes, weight can and will."

thanks for the reply badger . i guess i'm dense . i'm still not quite grasping it .

 

[BadgerRidge]

"..... Volume never changes, weight can and will."

thanks for the reply badger . i guess i'm dense . i'm still not quite grasping it .

Perhaps you jest... but just to be 100% sure you understand:

The idea is that the 'power' of the charge is set by the volume of the powder by the manufacturer of BH209

Or in other words, each lot (aka production run) of BlackHorn209 may vary in their ratio between weight and volume, but they tailor each lot to make equivalency of power based off of volume... so that you can use a normal black powder measure with safety and confidence...

Black powder is typically measured by volume, as its easy to keep a powder measure in your pocket/possibles bag.

 

[txhunter58]

I am curious about the volume/weight issue as well. I have only used volume (never weight) and have never had an issue, but reck zero and tweak a load when I get a new lot number.

But what I am hear you guys saying is when you compare lots:

Lot 1: 120 gr volume = 84 gr weight

Lot 2: 120 gr volume = 94 gr weight

Comparing these 2 loads with a chronograph, the two should be pretty close? Not a noticeable jump in velocity with the 94 gr load?

If that is the case, it explains why I have never had to do a major re-sighting with a new lot

 

[txhunter58]

If that is correct, his problem may be that he stuck with weight when he started using a new lot number.

Which is what you guys have been trying to tel him.

 

[txhunter58]

If I were him and had a couple days, I would get a volume powder measure

Measure:

100 gr (volume) and shoot 3 times.

110 gr V and shoot 3 times

120 gr V and shoot three times.

If he finds a more accurate load, weigh that volumetric amount and stick with that for this hunt.

If it is his scope, I doubt anything would make it better.

Any of those loads are way more power than he needs. My elk load is 95 gr V

 

[ENCORE50A]

Might want to review..........

 

[deermanok]

I also have only measured powder by volume, real black, triple 7 or BH209.

 

[txhunter58]

Encore. That doesn’t clear it up for me.

Those velocities are all pretty close. With Lot 41 going up a bit. But you don’t say what the volume of them was. Only that you used 84 gr by weight.

 

[ENCORE50A]

Encore. That doesn’t clear it up for me.

Those velocities are all pretty close. With Lot 41 going up a bit. But you don’t say what the volume of them was. Only that you used 84 gr by weight.

It compared an exact number of 84grs WEIGHT with all three lots. It is close and good enough for hunting, but not for precision target shooting at long range. 38fps is a considerable difference at 500yds+. For anything precision, remain with the same lot#.

The video shows the difference between weight and volume. Notice that even at 84grs W, that there's still a 1/2" of volume available with it at 120gr V on the measure.

 

[.45er]

Thanks for all the info guys. Im stuck between a rock and a hard place with being out of range time. The good news is its not quite as bad at the 88gr. About 4.5 inches. Its will work being that i only have 30-50 yard shots. But i will be putting in some work with it when i get home. I arrived at the 92gr by weight because when i first went to BH i weighed 90gr without studying the charts, (rookie mistake) because i had always shot 100gr of pellets. It was dead nuts with the mentioned Konus so thats what i shot with 250gr SST low drags. When i actually started studying when i changed to the PB295's because i wanted to be above 2000fps, i was shocked at the 84 gr recommendation, but again, it was dead nuts, so thats what i shot. now this season, its a different story.

I also have only measured powder by volume, real black, triple 7 or BH209.

I've gone down both paths (volume & weight) with powders and now only measure my charges by volume. I've found that if you have a consistent method of measuring a volumetric charge that's what's most important.
"Platinum" Powerbelts have always given me better groups when using charges above 90 grains by volume. Improperly or inconsistent seating of any projectile will also cause fliers and poor groupings...especially with Powerbelts.
If one is looking for more velocity and accuracy in their loads sabots are the solution.