NM Open Sight and Elk Load Questions

[newmexicomuledeerhunter]

Muzzle loader army,


Firstly, I want to thank everyone who helped advise me on my purchase and set up of my first muzzleloader last year. I had a great hunt chasing mule deer in northern new Mexico. Unfortunately, I did not harvest one but I learned a ton and had a blast.


I drew a muzzle loader bull elk tag this year that I am so excited about. They just banned scopes here in NM for muzzies so I need to figure out iron sights. I am leaning towards a Williams precision peep sight. Does that seem like a good option? Any other recommendations to consider for peep sights or open sights? My eyesight is good and this hunt will be in a wooded area, tall ponderosa pines, some more open country at times.


Another question, I was on an elk hunt last fall with my friend and he made a terrible mistake. His load was not strong enough for elk. I was a last minute addition and wasn’t aware of what load he was using. He had to shoot it multiple time to put it down, we felt terrible and I want to avoid that mistake on my hunt.


What pellet, powder, bullet recommendations can you give me to ensure I have enough power to drop a big bull. My rifle is a CVA Optima V2. For my mule deer hunt I was running two pellets and Barnes 290 grain spitfires. I want to get a powder measure soon instead of relying on pellets. I have 777 powder, haven’t gone Blackhorn 209 route… yet.


Hoping to take my first bull elk this October.

Thanks!!!

 

[ElDiablo]

I’d shoot a 300 ish grain bullet or larger with as much powder as you can comfortably handle. The Barnes 290 gr is nearly perfect. If you plan to shoot relatively close range, say out to 150 yards, then a Nosler Partition or Swift A-Frame in 300+ gr would be fantastic.

Yes, the Williams Precision (with fiber optic front) is a great choice.

 

[Bushfire]

I mostly use my flintlock, round balls and iron sights for all my hunting.

With practice I can’t imagine an elk at 120-150 yards would be impossible. I’m comfortable to take shots at red deer which are smaller than elk to 130 yards using my flintlock.

I shot a buffalo with 250gn hornady monoflex coppers, but that was pretty close range.
What load was your friend using that wasn’t up to task? You really don’t need huge powder loads to drive projectiles, having said that the modern bullets people use have more of a velocity requirement to open up. In a fast twist if I was concerned I’d buy good lead conicals, velocity won’t be an issue with a big lump of lead.

One of the last times I watched MeatEater, Rinella lost a bull elk with a ML and made a comment about them lacking power or some ridiculous thing like that. People really underestimate what they’re capable of. Put a bullet where it needs to go and they die just as quick as a modern gun.

I think a big problem is people are no longer used to open sights and limitations on range and when they draw a tag for a ML hunt they’re not proficient enough and treating an ML like a magnum centrefire and put on either poor shots or try putting a modern saboted bullet into a situation it can’t handle.

 

[FredB]

I'm totally sold on No Excuse bullets. Get the sizing pack first, to get the right fit. I used the 420 grain, .502 diameter in my Bighorn. With 85 grains of Pyrodex, and a wool wad, it was as accurate as I figure I am capable with open sights. With a heavy bullet like that, (or any, really) whatever charge gives you the best accuracy is the charge I'd recommend. I took an elk with that load, and she went right down, DRT. My cow was probably smaller than the bull you are hoping for, but I'd still be very comfortable using that load.
I've used Williams peeps, and they work just fine. But my Bighorn came with scope mounts, so I got an NECG peep, and I think I like it better. Costs a bit more, but feels more solid. And I did not have to change the front sight, which has been necessary in the past, when I've upgraded to a peep.

 

[txhunter58]

Curious what bullet/ powder and amount your friend was using. I would have to see that to decide if his bullet or load “failed”. Muzzleloading is not centerfire. Big slow bullets kill very well, but not necessarily knock them off their feet.

If you can use a sabot, the Barnes 290 would be a great choice. I used the 350 gr lead federal BORs last year and liked them. One shot in the chest and my bull went 3 yards.

I think the combination of a front fiberoptic sight and rear peep is what works best for me. I use the Williams rear “twilight” peep

 

[newmexicomuledeerhunter]

I’d shoot a 300 ish grain bullet or larger with as much powder as you can comfortably handle. The Barnes 290 gr is nearly perfect. If you plan to shoot relatively close range, say out to 150 yards, then a Nosler Partition or Swift A-Frame in 300+ gr would be fantastic.

Yes, the Williams Precision (with fiber optic front) is a great choice.

Great, thanks for your reply.

You prefer the fiber optic front to other types of front sights?

 

[newmexicomuledeerhunter]

Curious what bullet/ powder and amount your friend was using. I would have to see that to decide if his bullet or load “failed”. Muzzleloading is not centerfire. Big slow bullets kill very well, but not necessarily knock them off their feet.

If you can use a sabot, the Barnes 290 would be a great choice. I used the 350 gr lead federal BORs last year and liked them. One shot in the chest and my bull went 3 yards.

I think the combination of a front fiberoptic sight and rear peep is what works best for me. I use the Williams rear “twilight” peep

He was using a 290 or 300 grain bullet with two 50 grain pellets.

I can use sabots here in NM!

I mostly use my flintlock, round balls and iron sights for all my hunting.

With practice I can’t imagine an elk at 120-150 yards would be impossible. I’m comfortable to take shots at red deer which are smaller than elk to 130 yards using my flintlock.

I shot a buffalo with 250gn hornady monoflex coppers, but that was pretty close range.
What load was your friend using that wasn’t up to task? You really don’t need huge powder loads to drive projectiles, having said that the modern bullets people use have more of a velocity requirement to open up. In a fast twist if I was concerned I’d buy good lead conicals, velocity won’t be an issue with a big lump of lead.

One of the last times I watched MeatEater, Rinella lost a bull elk with a ML and made a comment about them lacking power or some ridiculous thing like that. People really underestimate what they’re capable of. Put a bullet where it needs to go and they die just as quick as a modern gun.

I think a big problem is people are no longer used to open sights and limitations on range and when they draw a tag for a ML hunt they’re not proficient enough and treating an ML like a magnum centrefire and put on either poor shots or try putting a modern saboted bullet into a situation it can’t handle.

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Thanks for your response and impressive animals you've harvested!

He was using a 290ish grain bullet and two 50 grain pellets. Probably not enough powder? Or a bad shot from too far? Maybe a combo of factors.

I plan to practice a lot out to 150 and not try a shot much further than that.

Any lead conical bullets you recommend for me to try?

Thanks!

 

[newmexicomuledeerhunter]

I'm totally sold on No Excuse bullets. Get the sizing pack first, to get the right fit. I used the 420 grain, .502 diameter in my Bighorn. With 85 grains of Pyrodex, and a wool wad, it was as accurate as I figure I am capable with open sights. With a heavy bullet like that, (or any, really) whatever charge gives you the best accuracy is the charge I'd recommend. I took an elk with that load, and she went right down, DRT. My cow was probably smaller than the bull you are hoping for, but I'd still be very comfortable using that load.
I've used Williams peeps, and they work just fine. But my Bighorn came with scope mounts, so I got an NECG peep, and I think I like it better. Costs a bit more, but feels more solid. And I did not have to change the front sight, which has been necessary in the past, when I've upgraded to a peep.

Cool, I'll check them out. How do you tell what is the "right fit?". Those bullet are heavier than anything I've shot before. I don't fully understand velocity, speech, all those factors in relation to bullet grain and amount of powder.

Your bullet sounds heavy but your powder sounds like not a huge amount! Do you measure powder by volume or by weight?

I actually went with an EABC peep rib sight, we will see how it works out.

Thank you!!!

 

[ElDiablo]

Great, thanks for your reply.

You prefer the fiber optic front to other types of front sights?

I do prefer the fiber optic front. Makes a huge difference in low light/heavy timber and is fine enough for me to shoot to 200 yards comfortably.

 

[newmexicomuledeerhunter]

I do prefer the fiber optic front. Makes a huge difference in low light/heavy timber and is fine enough for me to shoot to 200 yards comfortably.

Cool. Just to be clear, you run a peep sight on the back correct? The front sight is not adjustable right? But my back will have a ramp to adjust I believe. What distance do you zero to? And you just practice holding over at various distances?

Thanks!!!

 

[ElDiablo]

Cool. Just to be clear, you run a peep sight on the back correct? The front sight is not adjustable right? But my back will have a ramp to adjust I believe. What distance do you zero to? And you just practice holding over at various distances?

Thanks!!!

Yes - EABCO Peep Rib in the rear with a twilight or Merit adjustable iris. Yes, windage and elevation adjustments are on the rear peep.

Current load for one of my .50 Omegas with that set up is 250 gr Thor/115 grV BH209. Zeroed for 150 which makes it +2” at 100 and -6” at 200.

https://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/threads/250-gr-thor-hammers.42208/#post-393178

 

[Bushfire]

He was using a 290 or 300 grain bullet with two 50 grain pellets.

I can use sabots here in NM!

Thanks for your response and impressive animals you've harvested!

He was using a 290ish grain bullet and two 50 grain pellets. Probably not enough powder? Or a bad shot from too far? Maybe a combo of factors.

I plan to practice a lot out to 150 and not try a shot much further than that.

Any lead conical bullets you recommend for me to try?

Thanks!

First of all I'd recommend loose powder, much more room for adjustment in load development. 100gn is plenty of powder, having said that depending in the bullet and the range it may not have had the velocity to open? I don't have much to do with saboted modern bullets so not sure.

I use round balls, but I've heard lots of good things about No Excuse conicals.

 

[FredB]

Cool, I'll check them out. How do you tell what is the "right fit?". Those bullet are heavier than anything I've shot before. I don't fully understand velocity, speech, all those factors in relation to bullet grain and amount of powder.

Your bullet sounds heavy but your powder sounds like not a huge amount! Do you measure powder by volume or by weight?

I actually went with an EABC peep rib sight, we will see how it works out.

Thank you!!!

Just double checked and the load was 80 grains of Pyrodex. That was by volume. By weight is supposed to be more consistent, but is less convenient. I get 9/16 inch groups at 50 yds, so I'm happy with that. Don't have my book with me, but I think it was 2.5 in high at 50, and on at 100 yds. The sizing pack comes with better instructions than I can remember, but basically you start with the smaller diameter, I think .500, then .501, .502, until you get one that provides some light resistance, but not heavy resistance, being pushed through the barrel.
People do take elk with lighter bullets, but Idaho requires +50 cal for elk, and full caliber, all lead projectiles. I did not find the accuracy I wanted with lighter bullets. And even with the modest 80 grains, the trajectory was about the same as other bullets I'd tried with bigger charges. At least, out to 100 yds. I haven't tried it at greater ranges. And the kick really isn't bad, from an 8lb Bighorn.
That peep should work for you.

 

[Garbler]

I lived in Idaho years ago and later out of Meteetse, Wy where my Brother had guided for years and I’d taken maybe a dozen elk mostly food elk/cows younger dry cows. I agree heavy bullets are always the ticket when the optimal shot is not always possible. There are some thick patches of woods in North NM but mostly you’ll find broken timber with a good likelihood of sub 100 yard shots. I took one 350 lbs cow with my under hammer 325 gr ball rifle. Velocity was close to 1650 fps and my shot about 75 yards or more. It was a quartering shot from the stern but the bullet ranged up through the animal just ahead of the rump took out several ribs and finally broke bone on the far side shoulder anchoring her. It took a couple of minutes to reload ( not the fastest ) but she was leaning against a tree and my second shot took out the heart she was mine. Late day shot maybe half hour of light left but I wished I had a fiber optic sight.

Needless to say big slow round balls are good medicine despite many who think otherwise. One thing I do know is you can’t count on a Ten-X shot placement cause even a three legged elk can cover more tough steep ground than a man can in half a day and if there is a steep divide and it gets over the top you could be looking at a long hike around or going back for your horse. Therefore the big bullet placed in the shoulder or hip will break bones and put them down. You need to break these animals down in tough country on late day shots. Busted up shoulders or high hip or rump shots will do it. If they are hit just set and wait an hour until they stiffen up or die. I’m no elk hunting expert but I’ve known a few.
Rick

 

[Bushfire]

Needless to say big slow round balls are good medicine despite many who think otherwise. One thing I do know is you can’t count on a Ten-X shot placement cause even a three legged elk can cover more tough steep ground than a man can in half a day and if there is a steep divide and it gets over the top you could be looking at a long hike around or going back for your horse. Therefore the big bullet placed in the shoulder or hip will break bones and put them down. You need to break these animals down in tough country on late day shots. Busted up shoulders or high hip or rump shots will do it. If they are hit just set and wait an hour until they stiffen up or die. I’m no elk hunting expert but I’ve known a few.
Rick

I agree wholeheartedly on this.

People really underestimate the power of big spheres of lead.

A good anchoring shot in big country makes for much easier times.

 

[newmexicomuledeerhunter]

First of all I'd recommend loose powder, much more room for adjustment in load development. 100gn is plenty of powder, having said that depending in the bullet and the range it may not have had the velocity to open? I don't have much to do with saboted modern bullets so not sure.

I use round balls, but I've heard lots of good things about No Excuse conicals.

Great,

I just received my powder measure and am going to start working up a loaded. What grain of powder would you start with? and what grain increments increase?

Thanks!

 

[newmexicomuledeerhunter]

Just double checked and the load was 80 grains of Pyrodex. That was by volume. By weight is supposed to be more consistent, but is less convenient. I get 9/16 inch groups at 50 yds, so I'm happy with that. Don't have my book with me, but I think it was 2.5 in high at 50, and on at 100 yds. The sizing pack comes with better instructions than I can remember, but basically you start with the smaller diameter, I think .500, then .501, .502, until you get one that provides some light resistance, but not heavy resistance, being pushed through the barrel.
People do take elk with lighter bullets, but Idaho requires +50 cal for elk, and full caliber, all lead projectiles. I did not find the accuracy I wanted with lighter bullets. And even with the modest 80 grains, the trajectory was about the same as other bullets I'd tried with bigger charges. At least, out to 100 yds. I haven't tried it at greater ranges. And the kick really isn't bad, from an 8lb Bighorn.
That peep should work for you.

Great info! A little confused regarding the no excuses conicals, do they use sabots or not? I've only ever used sabots with my rounds but am a brand new ML shooter with limited experience.

Thanks!

 

[Bushfire]

Great,

I just received my powder measure and am going to start working up a loaded. What grain of powder would you start with? and what grain increments increase?

Thanks!

What projectiles did you end up deciding on?

 

[FredB]

Great info! A little confused regarding the no excuses conicals, do they use sabots or not? I've only ever used sabots with my rounds but am a brand new ML shooter with limited experience.

Thanks!

No they do not use sabots. The whole idea is that you can get a conical that fits your barrel, exactly. For the best accuracy.

 

[ElDiablo]

Great info! A little confused regarding the no excuses conicals, do they use sabots or not? I've only ever used sabots with my rounds but am a brand new ML shooter with limited experience.

Thanks!

No Excuses does sell saboted bullets but they are really known for their lead full-bore conicals. The full-bore bullets are the ones guys recommend.

https://www.muzzleloading-bullets.com/shop/