Remington Ultimate

[sg.ellis2]

"Our current plans are to explore higher pressure loads developed specifically for the Remington Ultimate. When the testing is complete, our results will be published along with any new loading data. Right now we are extremely interested in the potential of this new rifle and are looking forward to working with Remington to produce specialized data."

- Western Powders. September 22, 2014

I believe the end results would be considered "as PROOFED™", per Remington and Western Powders.

For now, they've only tested the Remington to 120 grains volume. I'd expect they'll be done with the higher pressure testing before next hunting season.

Best

 

[ENCORE50A]

It seems that Western would have more data available than just 120grs volume BH, it surely would benefit Western itself, who has a warehouse full of BH to sell. The pressures generated by 120grs BH is FAR less than 200grs of T7 and is very linear compared to T7. Has anyone seen the actual UF breech plug to compare it to the RU plug side by side? Its my understanding that the only difference is, that Remington made their plug from .416 SS? I've also heard that the brass from the UF rifle works in the RU too.

The UF rifle WILL shoot BH209 and do it identical to the RU. Its rather the brass holds up to re-priming more than once or twice. 416 SS will gas cut also, just not as quickly. Shooters of either rifle should pay close attention to their brass for any gas leaking and if its noticed, time to NOT use that brass again.

 

[long shot]

so you are saying, that BH 209 won't harm breech hole or cause it to erode?

 

[ENCORE50A]

so you are saying, that BH 209 won't harm breech hole or cause it to erode?

If the question was directed my way, I can't comment on the flash hole but, it sure can ruin a breech plug. If gas escapes from between the nipple and case, and does so enough times, it will gas cut a breech plug. When some of the best rifle builders were asked if a 416 SS plug would gas cut, the answer was yes. It may not cut as quickly but, it will gas cut and require replacement.
The breech plugs in both the RU and UF rifles are torqued to 100 in/lbs. With enough shooting, the breech plug may not be easily removed. If the nipple is broken off while trying to remove it, there's a lot of work required to get the remainder of the plug out. Using BH in my UF rifle and re-priming brass to many times, I cut my plug and it required replacement. The action had to be removed from the barrel, then the barrel put into a lathe and the plug drilled out. Then with an EZ-out and a cheater bar, the remainder of the plug was removed. At first I thought I'd be anteing up for a new barrel. Fortunately a new barrel wasn't required. I learned a couple lessons through that experience. For me........ I'll prime my new brass twice, after that they go in a bag and I'll sell them to someone with a .45WM pistol or rifle.

 

[sg.ellis2]

so you are saying, that BH 209 won't harm breech hole or cause it to erode?

Not my thread, but if directed toward me.

I suggest asking Johnson reference recommendation for using BH209 in his muzzleloaders. To the best of my knowledge, it should not be used.

The new Remington is a different story, and my understanding of the explanation is such:

The Johnson breech plug, that Remington now has rights to use and/or alter at will, is made from a 300 series stainless steel, which is great for corrosion resistance, but is a soft stainless steel, normally found on the Rockwell B scale. Intent for the Johnson rifle is for pellets, which if his recommendations are followed, the plug works as designed. But, if his recommendations are not followed, the nature of this soft stainless steel, will rapidly erode, will damage the threads, and will likely strip when removed. Remington was not happy with this, so they made changes. They dumped the 300 series steel for 416 stainless hardened to 58 HRC, which is one of the hardest stainless steels, and is top shelf for any breech plug. In addition, they gave the new breech plug stronger threads with an interference fit, and they improved the flash hole design. End results from their testing, the erosion issues with the softer 300 series steel was corrected.

 

[ENCORE50A]

so you are saying, that BH 209 won't harm breech hole or cause it to erode?

Not my thread, but if directed toward me.

I suggest asking Johnson reference recommendation for using BH209 in his muzzleloaders. To the best of my knowledge, it should not be used.

The new Remington is a different story, and my understanding of the explanation is such:

The Johnson breech plug, that Remington now has rights to use and/or alter at will, is made from a 300 series stainless steel, which is great for corrosion resistance, but is a soft stainless steel, normally found on the Rockwell B scale. Intent for the Johnson rifle is for pellets, which if his recommendations are followed, the plug works as designed. But, if his recommendations are not followed, the nature of this soft stainless steel, will rapidly erode, will damage the threads, and will likely strip when removed. Remington was not happy with this, so they made changes. They dumped the 300 series steel for 416 stainless hardened to 58 HRC, which is one of the hardest stainless steels, and is top shelf for any breech plug. In addition, they gave the new breech plug stronger threads with an interference fit, and they improved the flash hole design. End results from their testing, the erosion issues with the softer 300 series steel was corrected.

Ken Johnston does not recommend shooting BH in his muzzleloaders. Shooting his recommended load, some rifles have reached 10,000 shots fired without breech plug problems.

 

[Squeeze]

I dont see how making a BP of stronger base corrects the problem. better metal may take more shots, but in the end, gas cutting will take place. The smokeless guys try for vent liners of the toughest stuff they can get, just to prolong the inevitable. If I had gotten a RU, and only expected 2 shots per primer case, I see myself getting it converted to a hankins plug and primer modules and start testing there. BUT with the knowledge that further testing, is also jeopardizing the barrel, and possibly entire gun. Guess Ill wait a few years and see how the bugs work out on these new release guns.

 

[ENCORE50A]

I dont see how making a BP of stronger base corrects the problem. better metal may take more shots, but in the end, gas cutting will take place. The smokeless guys try for vent liners of the toughest stuff they can get, just to prolong the inevitable. If I had gotten a RU, and only expected 2 shots per primer case, I see myself getting it converted to a hankins plug and primer modules and start testing there. BUT with the knowledge that further testing, is also jeopardizing the barrel, and possibly entire gun. Guess Ill wait a few years and see how the bugs work out on these new release guns.

Agree, stronger only may make it slightly less susceptible to gas cutting. Its those smokeless guys I asked about the 416 stainless steel and they say it will gas cut.

For the average hunter or shooter wishing for a longer range capable rifle, I think the Remington Ultimate fits most shooter's budget. What I like, is the exchanges between owners and/or others. Its a new product and will have some bugs, but its a learning experience for everyone, including those reading the posts who may never be members of forums. I know of 3 or 4 guys that are more than willing to purchase one but, they're waiting for more good reports. Unfortunately when bad reports are posted, they're more recognizable to readers than those which are positive. I guess its the nature of us humans.

 

[sg.ellis2]

I find it amazing how many cheap Spanish guns, using softer, 20 to 30 HRC, 416 Stainless Steel breech plugs with varying degrees of blow-back, have been running so successfully the past 7 years since the introduction of Blackhorn 209. Absolute miracle, being how you guys imagine the sky will fall if done so in the new Remington with harder plug and better sealing. AMAZING!

 

[Squeeze]

Ive been through the breech plug/ventliner problems on a few smokeless guns. Theres a HUGE difference from the avg load, and the max charges these guys are using. Their whole purpose for the gun is longer ranges and max charges. I could get maybe 100 shots from a ventliner with my setup and lighter 100 yard charge. when I bumped it up to heavy long range loads, they would burn in 10-15 shots. in some cases. There is still a TON of research being done just on breechplugs. and gas cutting can do some big damage quickly. Its all a constantly evolving transfer of information

 

[ENCORE50A]

........... if done so in the new Remington with harder plug and better sealing. AMAZING!

That is exactly the key to rather there will or will not be a problem. It'll shoot BH, one just has to number the times they reprime their brass and keep close watch on it. They're production rifles and head space won't be identical on each rifle. Some may get 4 or 5+ reprimes, while others have already shown gas leaking after the third prime. However Remington is not listing BH as a substitute to shoot from their rifle.......... yet......... and the manual states only BP Pyrodex or Triple Seven.

I don't believe anyone is trying to argue or challenge, its a new rifle on the market and some have had more than their fair share of problems with them.

 

[GM54-120]

I find it amazing how many cheap Spanish guns, using softer, 20 to 30 HRC, 416 Stainless Steel breech plugs with varying degrees of blow-back, have been running so successfully the past 7 years since the introduction of Blackhorn 209. Absolute miracle, being how you guys imagine the sky will fall if done so in the new Remington with harder plug and better sealing. AMAZING!

Seal a 209 correctly with the correct geometry and a plug can last well over 10K shots. My NULA seals on the rim of the 209 primers between the bolt and plug. Not the nose or sides. I get no blowby, no swelling, no leakage around the cup/anvil and the flash hole is still like new after roughly 1000 shots of high pressure loads. Higher than you will ever see with 120gr of BH209 and a 350gr sabotless bullet.

 

[long shot]

Amazing to me , why people are shooting BH 209 if the Manual doesn't list it. Then state that breech plugs are burning out and eroding. The loads are to hot when things like this happen and not the rifles fault. You can't compare the rifle to smokeless , it is apples and oranges. Bh209 only recomends 120 grns. for anything on there web.

 

[Squeeze]

I burned out quite a few breech plugs on TC's, savage, and knights by shooting relatively light loads of BH. (usually 100 grn volume) and these are supposed to be fine with it. I shoot a lot more Black and subs even in smokeless capable. I just shoot smokeless at the range ocasionally. im in a smoke only state

 

[long shot]

That is still a lot of pressure with 100grns. has anyone tried smaller charges say below 80 by volume or is it just that everyone wants the velocity. With center fire you run chance of eroding the throat in chamber with hot loads. What would be the difference?

 

[long shot]

I posted a thread about sealed ignition in Muzzle loading bench guns. If someone found a way to apply this to The inlines it would eleminate the problem I believe but I'm just a shooter and not a gunsmith or machinist .

 

[GM54-120]

You realize 120grV of BH209 and a 300gr sabotless does not even break 28Kpsi. Usually closer to 26Kpsi. A 250gr does not even break 25Kpsi and this is in a 45cal. The max PSI is even less when you put that same bullet in a 50cal with a sabot. 3 pellets can easily achieve higher pressures, very easily in a 50cal.

Seems odd to me a $800+ modern ML cant handle one of the most popular subs available today but it can handle other subs that make greater peak pressure.

 

[GM54-120]

I posted a thread about sealed ignition in Muzzle loading bench guns. If someone found a way to apply this to The inlines it would eleminate the problem I believe but I'm just a shooter and not a gunsmith or machinist .

It certainly can be done. My NULA is about as sealed as it gets. The minor issue is i can only use CCI primers because that is how it is head spaced.

When my bolt is closed, there is no gap.

My bolt is recessed for the primers rim. The rest of the primer sits all the way in the breach plug.

Tolerances are extremely tight and the primer is hardly effected by the pressure.

 

[ENCORE50A]

You realize 120grV of BH209 and a 300gr sabotless does not even break 28Kpsi. Usually closer to 26Kpsi. A 250gr does not even break 25Kpsi and this is in a 45cal. The max PSI is even less when you put that same bullet in a 50cal with a sabot. 3 pellets can easily achieve higher pressures, very easily in a 50cal.

Seems odd to me a $800+ modern ML cant handle one of the most popular subs available today but it can handle other subs that make greater peak pressure.

I agree about those pressures and the barrels can certainly handle it. Where the potential problem is, is the seal between the brass case and the nipple. I would bet with a NEW NEVER FIRED brass case, the seal will remain constant with no gas leaking from the case/nipple. I'm willing to bet a soda that if a owner only shot NEW brass, he/she would most likely not have a problem shooting BH and probably no more wear than when shooting the recommended propellants. However unless someone is making their own brass from .308 or 30-06 cases cutting/trimming them down, it can get expensive buying new manufacturer brass if one shoots often.

You have a softer brass case being compressed between the harder bolt face and the nipple. With NEW brass, this compressed fit is very good and will prevent gas from escaping between the nipple and case. Repriming the case itself has nothing to do with gas cutting. IMO its solely related to the compression memory in the case itself after repriming new fired brass. The deciding factor is how many times the brass can be reprimed before the compressed memory becomes so loose, that it allows gas to escape.

The photo of the breech plug and case, clearly shows how the brass case is compressed to the breech plug nipple. Its obvious that when using NEW brass the seal will be very tight but, it should also be obvious how the compression memory occurs. Most are used to using a brass case in a CF rifle, where the entire case is held within a chamber and there's no compression memory related to the base and flash hole. The RU and UF rifles are a whole different design.

 

[GM54-120]

Convert a RU or UF to the Hankin's primer module system and the problem is basically solved permanently. It uses a .473 case head module or whatever you need. The modules are designed to handle FAR higher pressures than subs will ever make and its LRMP. IIRC he is in the process now of making the conversions for the RU. His plugs also use a tungsten bushing for the flash hole. If the flash hole erodes, just buy a new bushing and install it.