Sabots or Bullet-to-Bore for Hunting?

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ElDiablo

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For big game hunting, what are the advantages and disadvantages of shooting a saboted bullet vs a bullet-to-bore (a sized jacketed or monometal bullet - not a lead conical - but a bullet that you’ve sized for your barrel.)?

And for the majority of hunters reading this, who own a 1:28 twist .50, which is the better choice?
 
I think the most appealing aspect of sizing bullets is that technically with most guns it will be the most accurate. Since many that shoot 1 and 28 twist are hunting and not target shooting let's look at the topic again from a hunting standpoint that you've defined in your title of your thread. 9 years ago when I first started shooting smokeless and sizing bullets I was initially so impressed with the accuracy that I stepped away from any plastic load. Because I am fanatic about accuracy ,one fall morning in Southeast Texas I had bullet sized, Fury bullets which typically have no spring back the ambient temperature and humidity had changed drastically while I was out hunting I had shot a hog around 200 yards away he was laying on the ground there were other hogs that had ran off at the initial gunshot but they came back out which of course inspired me to reload much to my surprise I had trouble getting the sized bullet down into the bore. I was able to get the bullet seated but it sure took a few more very critical moments. I ignored that situation and kept on shooting bore Riders wasn't long and I ran into a situation like that again second time it happened it really bothered me changing ambient temperature and humidity sure can affect seating a bore riding bullet in some parts of the country and other climates and areas it's not that big of an issue. Well let's stop for a moment and and just Define this if the bullet you sized and the bore you sized it for are constant then loading a size bullet will be faster won't it, you don't have to stick it in the plastic. If however you have ambient temperature change it's also going to be possible for you to have issues with the bullet that's been sized either they will get tight or they will get loose, I suppose that one could size a bullet loose to deal with this potential bore change if the ambient temperature dropped however I don't think many of us want to walk the woods with a bullet that is not seated firmly again if your target shooting that's not an issue, hunting is another story, this is never an issue with plastic sabot. I've never ran into any issues in the field loading a plastic load and the seating of the load on top of the powder charge and most of my guns is so firm and easy to feel that even without a witness Mark I could load my gun blindfolded and be confident I always feel that sabo set down on that load not to mention the seal from moisture that that sabot gives me too again I don't necessarily have that in a bore rider.
You've heard the statement by myself and maybe others I target shoot with bore riders, I hunt with plastic, I hunt with a plastic load not only for what I feel like is the security of loading and being in the field that it gives me I also hunt with plastic because of the accuracy available if the hunter will take the time to search that accuracy out all of my bore riding rifles shoot a quarter inch and less and all of them shoot a half inch and less with plastic, a quarter inch difference still way under one Moa.
Now looking at the 28 twist 50 cal of course most of the bullets available are 45 Cal and some type of plastic and then there's the fury bullets that fit the bore I guess there's some others like Thor Etc and other than that you would have to go to big lead I cannot speak about big lead I've never shot it and had no intentions of it I have had limited success with furys 500s 501s and 503s is universal bullet I haven't had much success with the problem for me with the 50 cal 28 twist is the 28th twist, I'm of the opinion that the 28th twist shoots best with a 250 to 275 grain bullet I know some people shoot 300 grain bullets but I don't see a lot of groups posted I hear a lot of comments about it's good to go or okay which I struggle with ,most 28 twists that I have shot and they've all been cvas have been very accurate with 250 grain bullets and some with the 265 stb Fury the accuracy I'm speaking of is 3/4 in or less in a 28 twist break open CVA with the Harvester black sabot.
I think a lot of which is best for you is determined by the conditions that you hunt in for me if I was hunting in a state that allowed plastic and I had spent a lot of money and time and planning to make that hunt there is no way I would be hunting with a bore rider. Again having not shot lead I would imagine lead is soft enough that the bore change is not an issue you can just tap or push your lead all the way down to the powder that's a different situation.
I have multiple rifles that will shoot plastic loads out to 400 yards even 450 and 500 less than Moa all of these rifles at 100 yards will put plastic loads almost in a hole you would look at the groups and swear they were size bullets not plastic loads there is a lot more accuracy potential in a plastic load then a lot of people have discovered and much of the secret I think of a plastic load is finding the Plastics tune Point not necessarily the bullets maybe that's another topic, I have spent so much time with the light blue the last four or five years and even the last three I've gotten really excited about its accuracy potential the black Harvester in a 28 twist or the red or orange for the 50 cal I do not have as much experience in shoulder time I'm going to turn a lot of my shooting time the next couple of years specifically to that issue and the 50 cal I hope to learn more about what is best there I'm sure convinced of this that caliber and that twist can absolutely get a whole lot better
A long post forgive the rambling I'm very interested in the topic and I very much appreciate the bore riding folks.
 
I agree that accuracy is the major driver here. We are all searching for that Holy Grail of a bullet.
Diablo it sounds like you've come pretty close!
I have a couple rifles that shoots a 300 gr XTP in a sabot extremely well and I wouldn't hesitate to shoot anything up to and including elk with it. I also have a 45 that shoots sabots great and another that just eats up 345 gr cast I-bullets
 
I shoot (3) Styles / Types of Muzzleloader projectiles:
Smooth Sized
Full Form Sized
Saboted


All have their Places.
Things the Sabot has going for them.
1) Work Well with Factory Barrels with Inconsistent Bores from Muzzle to Breech
2) Firmly Loaded the Projectile stays on the Powder Charge (Rides on your 4-Wheeler)
3) Families Hunting Together using the same Caliber & wanting to share the same Loads for Simplicity
4) Smaller Diameter Bullets for Better Ballistic Coefficients & Flatter Trajectories
5) Lower Recoil
 
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I shoot (3) Styles / Types of Muzzleloader projectiles:
Smooth Sized
Full Form Sized
Saboted


All have their Places.
Things the Sabot has going for them.
1) Work Well with Factory Barrels with Inconsistent Bores from Muzzle to Breech
2) Firmly Loaded the Projectile stays on the Powder Charge (Rides on your 4-Wheeler)
3) Families Hunting Together using the same Caliber & wanting to share the same Loads for Simplicity
4) Smaller Diameter Bullets for Better Ballistic Coefficients & Flatter Trajectories
5) Lower Recoil
Thats awesome that you do use all three methods, I've never full formed as of now. I am considering doing it with this next Omega SML project I have goin though.
Absolutely correct, all things have their proper place & use.
I'd like to add to your list of benefits that I can take any .40/10mm pistol bullet from 140g to 200g. smooth sided bullets, any .400, .401, .402 knurled bullets from 225-275g, put them in a HLBCR, use any powder from T7 to BH 209 to smokeless, push them up to 2800fps., and load/shoot - load/shoot at MOA all day long out to 300yds. If anyone thinks that they can load a bullet to bore rifle faster than I can dump a charge, & easily push a bullet in a sabot down my bore & be ready to fire again in seconds, in the woods, or in a treestand, they are out of their friggin mind!
High heat, big temp swings from early morn to mid day then back down again, high humidity or in the rain, all the saboted bullet is a better choice. Anyone complaining about a 500yd moa or better sabot load not being good enough to hunt with is full of themselves. Now if I got to hunt where shots are likely to be 500yds & out, I would not take a brake action with a sabot load bc thats not the right application for that. Its pretty simple really.
 
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As stated above, the stuck sized bullet is certainly a real possibility. I’ve had a couple that got stuck which I literally had to push down with the aid of a three pound sledgehammer. I believe I recall another member here telling us about loading two sized bullets once by accident and having to push them back out with a grease gun.

No way I want to have to deal with a situation like that in the field on a hunt of a lifetime.

Not a worry with a sabot.
 
I have to admit if I couldn't get the accuracy that I'm looking for with plastic I sure would be taking the risk of sticking a bullet out in the field with a sized bullet. I thought about it a little more this afternoon I really am able to consistently get within a quarter inch of matching a bore rider recipe in almost all of my rifles what do I mean by that if I've got a quarter inch recipe for my gun with sized bullets I'm able to shoot a half inch with a sabot load, that is really not that bad, again I think plastic can do some amazing things if you work with it,,, truth is anything past probably 400 yd maybe I want that quarter inch better grouping that sizing gives me but from 100 to 400 yards plastic can do some amazing things.
 
As stated above, the stuck sized bullet is certainly a real possibility. I’ve had a couple that got stuck which I literally had to push down with the aid of a three pound sledgehammer. I believe I recall another member here telling us about loading two sized bullets once by accident and having to push them back out with a grease gun.

No way I want to have to deal with a situation like that in the field on a hunt of a lifetime.

Not a worry with a sabot.
That's a pretty broad statement. There have been many barrels budged from loading two saboted bullets.
Saying its "Not a worry with a sabot" is outlandish and wrong.

Why didn't you just say that the "member" was me? The reason I posted it was because unlike some, I'm not perfect. Do you know the actual circumstances of why and the reason a grease gun was required? This I will easily explain, it surely wasn't because the bullets weren't sized correctly.
Didn't someone also mention using a 3# hammer to seat a bullet?
 
I think the most appealing aspect of sizing bullets is that technically with most guns it will be the most accurate. Since many that shoot 1 and 28 twist are hunting and not target shooting let's look at the topic again from a hunting standpoint that you've defined in your title of your thread. 9 years ago when I first started shooting smokeless and sizing bullets I was initially so impressed with the accuracy that I stepped away from any plastic load. Because I am fanatic about accuracy ,one fall morning in Southeast Texas I had bullet sized, Fury bullets which typically have no spring back the ambient temperature and humidity had changed drastically while I was out hunting I had shot a hog around 200 yards away he was laying on the ground there were other hogs that had ran off at the initial gunshot but they came back out which of course inspired me to reload much to my surprise I had trouble getting the sized bullet down into the bore. I was able to get the bullet seated but it sure took a few more very critical moments. I ignored that situation and kept on shooting bore Riders wasn't long and I ran into a situation like that again second time it happened it really bothered me changing ambient temperature and humidity sure can affect seating a bore riding bullet in some parts of the country and other climates and areas it's not that big of an issue. Well let's stop for a moment and and just Define this if the bullet you sized and the bore you sized it for are constant then loading a size bullet will be faster won't it, you don't have to stick it in the plastic. If however you have ambient temperature change it's also going to be possible for you to have issues with the bullet that's been sized either they will get tight or they will get loose, I suppose that one could size a bullet loose to deal with this potential bore change if the ambient temperature dropped however I don't think many of us want to walk the woods with a bullet that is not seated firmly again if your target shooting that's not an issue, hunting is another story, this is never an issue with plastic sabot. I've never ran into any issues in the field loading a plastic load and the seating of the load on top of the powder charge and most of my guns is so firm and easy to feel that even without a witness Mark I could load my gun blindfolded and be confident I always feel that sabo set down on that load not to mention the seal from moisture that that sabot gives me too again I don't necessarily have that in a bore rider.
You've heard the statement by myself and maybe others I target shoot with bore riders, I hunt with plastic, I hunt with a plastic load not only for what I feel like is the security of loading and being in the field that it gives me I also hunt with plastic because of the accuracy available if the hunter will take the time to search that accuracy out all of my bore riding rifles shoot a quarter inch and less and all of them shoot a half inch and less with plastic, a quarter inch difference still way under one Moa.
Now looking at the 28 twist 50 cal of course most of the bullets available are 45 Cal and some type of plastic and then there's the fury bullets that fit the bore I guess there's some others like Thor Etc and other than that you would have to go to big lead I cannot speak about big lead I've never shot it and had no intentions of it I have had limited success with furys 500s 501s and 503s is universal bullet I haven't had much success with the problem for me with the 50 cal 28 twist is the 28th twist, I'm of the opinion that the 28th twist shoots best with a 250 to 275 grain bullet I know some people shoot 300 grain bullets but I don't see a lot of groups posted I hear a lot of comments about it's good to go or okay which I struggle with ,most 28 twists that I have shot and they've all been cvas have been very accurate with 250 grain bullets and some with the 265 stb Fury the accuracy I'm speaking of is 3/4 in or less in a 28 twist break open CVA with the Harvester black sabot.
I think a lot of which is best for you is determined by the conditions that you hunt in for me if I was hunting in a state that allowed plastic and I had spent a lot of money and time and planning to make that hunt there is no way I would be hunting with a bore rider. Again having not shot lead I would imagine lead is soft enough that the bore change is not an issue you can just tap or push your lead all the way down to the powder that's a different situation.
I have multiple rifles that will shoot plastic loads out to 400 yards even 450 and 500 less than Moa all of these rifles at 100 yards will put plastic loads almost in a hole you would look at the groups and swear they were size bullets not plastic loads there is a lot more accuracy potential in a plastic load then a lot of people have discovered and much of the secret I think of a plastic load is finding the Plastics tune Point not necessarily the bullets maybe that's another topic, I have spent so much time with the light blue the last four or five years and even the last three I've gotten really excited about its accuracy potential the black Harvester in a 28 twist or the red or orange for the 50 cal I do not have as much experience in shoulder time I'm going to turn a lot of my shooting time the next couple of years specifically to that issue and the 50 cal I hope to learn more about what is best there I'm sure convinced of this that caliber and that twist can absolutely get a whole lot better
A long post forgive the rambling I'm very interested in the topic and I very much appreciate the bore riding folks.
Started to respond earlier, but other things needed done.

We'll have to agree to disagree a little. I live between the three of the largest Great Lakes. I'm only a couple miles off Huron. Of course you know I shoot and shoot often. Our weather here can be 80° and 20% humidity and change in 5 minutes to 50° and 100% humidity. It can also go from 60° and 30% humidity, to 32° and 100% humidity over night. The day before the opener it can be 65° and wake up opening morning to 25° and 24" of snow. THAT my friend is some pretty drastic weather movement.

I've never had a Fury bullet that I hunt with change loading force, even with our extreme weather changes as you have had. My loading force remains constant, as do the Fury bullets. I've never had one spring back. I have 300gr Fury ST that were sized 2yrs ago and the loading force is identical today as when sized. I believe you know that I have the equipment to validate loading forces. Myself, I have not experienced any changes with having a bullet loosen or tighten because of insane changes in temperature or humidity.

I am NOT saying that it can't happen. Not at all. However, my experiences in a location where the weather changes can be EXTREME and VERY QUICK it's never happened.
 
Inconsistent bores on many rifles - another great reason to shoot a sabot as Billy says above.

Unless the bore is very consistent, you’ll probably be unable to make a sized jacketed bullet work.
 
I shoot both boreriders and sabots. I think for myself at reasonable hunting ranges (300 yrds and less)the sabots are a better choice. I have 4 smokeless muzzleloaders(1:20 to 1:18 twist) and they all shoot MOA with a light blue sabot/ .402 Fury from 225grns to 275 grns with 57 grns of IMR 4198. They load easily and consistently smooth. I do not have to worry about temperature change. Here in the south we can have 30 degrees change from morning to afternoon. If I am planning on shooting long range(past 500yrd) I would definitely be using boreriders. But for typical hunting situations I prefer the sabots.
 
For the past several years i have traveled. That does not do well for time to try bore riders. The sabots are easier to get a load worked up in a couple range sessions. Some here want less than moa at 100 yards, i don't have a problem with palm sized groups. I have a sizer n i run my .45's through it 3 times. Then even a year later i can use a one hand load with my sabots, black Harvester short. I use .230 gr XTP's n Fury 250's form my Black Diamond .50 cal. Now being frugal= (poor) the funds for bore riders are on a back burner.
 
Cost. Another selling point for saboted bullets.

Many of the bullets made for bullet to bore shooting (Parker, Pittman, Arrowhead) are comparatively very expensive - ranging from about $1.40-$2.40 per bullet as compared to perhaps .30-.50+ (or less) each for commercial .45 bullets (plus the minimal cost of the sabot).

Sabots offer you the versatility to shoot literally hundreds of different .40 ish and .45 ish caliber jacketed bullets from say 185 grains to 400 grains in weight.

No question that with sabots, you have more choices and there’re less expensive.
 
I shoot (3) Styles / Types of Muzzleloader projectiles:
Smooth Sized
Full Form Sized
Saboted


All have their Places.
Things the Sabot has going for them.
1) Work Well with Factory Barrels with Inconsistent Bores from Muzzle to Breech
2) Firmly Loaded the Projectile stays on the Powder Charge (Rides on your 4-Wheeler)
3) Families Hunting Together using the same Caliber & wanting to share the same Loads for Simplicity
4) Smaller Diameter Bullets for Better Ballistic Coefficients & Flatter Trajectories
5) Lower Recoil
Absolutely agree
 
Started to respond earlier, but other things needed done.

We'll have to agree to disagree a little. I live between the three of the largest Great Lakes. I'm only a couple miles off Huron. Of course you know I shoot and shoot often. Our weather here can be 80° and 20% humidity and change in 5 minutes to 50° and 100% humidity. It can also go from 60° and 30% humidity, to 32° and 100% humidity over night. The day before the opener it can be 65° and wake up opening morning to 25° and 24" of snow. THAT my friend is some pretty drastic weather movement.

I've never had a Fury bullet that I hunt with change loading force, even with our extreme weather changes as you have had. My loading force remains constant, as do the Fury bullets. I've never had one spring back. I have 300gr Fury ST that were sized 2yrs ago and the loading force is identical today as when sized. I believe you know that I have the equipment to validate loading forces. Myself, I have not experienced any changes with having a bullet loosen or tighten because of insane changes in temperature or humidity.

I am NOT saying that it can't happen. Not at all. However, my experiences in a location where the weather changes can be EXTREME and VERY QUICK it's never happened.
It's actually not the bullet that changes with extreme temperature. It's the barrel. I agree that the bullet doesn't spring back if sized properly.
 
It's actually not the bullet that changes with extreme temperature. It's the barrel. I agree that the bullet doesn't spring back if sized properly.
Agree but, even in this insane climate here in northern MI, the forces have never changed in my rifles. I'm a retired Ergonomist and have all the specialized equipment for checking forces. Everything from force to acceleration in the past.
Handy tool to own if you shoot a considerable amount. Chatillon Force Gauges Archives - C.S.C. Force Measurement, Inc.
 
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