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Savage 10ML-II synthetic stocks?
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I would pay a little more for a better stock. While they are at it please add the third pillar, make the breech plug removeable with a socket, and lock nut the front swivel.
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They will get you by for hunting, but as I am sure most of you already know from previous posts I have made. I am going to a laminate thumbhole stock on both of my Savage front stuffers. That should greatly improve accuracy especially since I am bedding both and probably adding the 3rd pillar on both
I was extremely disappointed in the quality of the black synthetic stock on my Savage 10ML-2. I mentioned so on the warranty registration card I submitted to Savage. I wish I would have spent the extra money for the laminated stock.
I would say that my Sav10ML-2 with the stainless barrel and black syn stock shoots good, but not great. I get a lot of 2 to 2.5 inch groups using 300gr. XTPs, SSTs and Barnes MZs. It will definitely harvest deer from 100yds and in. However 1 to 1.5 inch groups have been rare. I have been monitoring this message board and reading all of Randy's excellent articles (http://members.aol.com/randymagic/savage3.htm) and he and others seem to consistently get 1" or better groups. No such luck for me. I just ordered some of Randy's vent liners, hopefully they will help. I also just ordered some of the orange MMPs and .458 300g Barnes originals to add to my vast collection of test loads.
I have definitely been trying alot of combinations:
Bullets: 200g Shockwaves, 250g SSTs, 250g XTPs, 250g MZs, 260g Win. Platnim Tips, 285g Barnes Spitzers, 300g XTPs, 300g SSTs, 300g MZs.
Sabots (All MMP): blue (on the 200g SW), short black MMP, long black MMP (HPH12) and I just ordered some long black HPH24 and orange MMPs.
Powders: AA 5744 (39, 41, 43 and 45 grains), IMR 4759 (41 & 43 grains) and VV-N120 (60 grains).
Primers: Federal and Winchester 209s
What type of repeatable groups have others been able to get and with what loads?
I have definitely been trying alot of combinations:
Bullets: 200g Shockwaves, 250g SSTs, 250g XTPs, 250g MZs, 260g Win. Platnim Tips, 285g Barnes Spitzers, 300g XTPs, 300g SSTs, 300g MZs.
Sabots (All MMP): blue (on the 200g SW), short black MMP, long black MMP (HPH12) and I just ordered some long black HPH24 and orange MMPs.
Powders: AA 5744 (39, 41, 43 and 45 grains), IMR 4759 (41 & 43 grains) and VV-N120 (60 grains).
Primers: Federal and Winchester 209s
What type of repeatable groups have others been able to get and with what loads?
I get all kinds of different groups with my Savage w/synthetic stock. I thinks it's me not the rifle or the stock. On a good day everything feels right and I get the good groups. Some days and just can't put everything together and the groups open up. Consistency in loading is also a factor. The synthetic stock isn't the greatest looking but it works. I'm more than please with mine.
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On my ML-I I have a Boyds Laminate stock - it shoots tighter groups since I switched, and I even pillar bedded the plastic stock before I switched. I have a ML-II (tupperware stock) with the 3rd pillar and the action is bedded. If any extra $ is around, that will get a laminate thumbhole stock.
True, the syn stock is lighter, but I believe a lighter stock makes for higher recoil. I could be wrong on that one. Maybe my expectations are too high. 2-3" groups at 100yds is certainly adequate for deer, but I was hoping for the 1 inchers after reading about and researching the Sav10ML-2.
IAHUNTER- I'm sure Randy can give you some pointers- he's led most to some fine shooting load-but it may be something other than the loads... on my tupperware stock I did some fitting to make the barrel seated firmly on the pillars and make sure the action screw is centered and not absorbing recoil- it helped a lot-3/4 groups with 45gr. 5744 250 XTPs- but I wouldn't go back from the Boyd's Laminate I put on though... -Getonit-
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getonit said:
I'm sure I can't.
Every single accuracy oriented Savage shooter I know in this area has lost the plastic in favor of the factory laminate or an aftermarket stock, not just the muzzleloader-- but .223's and .308's as well.
More weight = less recoil, on about a 1:1 ratio.
RW- Can you point me to some good aftermarket stocks for the Sav10ML-2? Can a different stock really make a significant difference in group size? I am considering calling up Savage explaining my problem and asking them how much it would cost me to send them my syn stock and have them ship me a laminate stock.
Here is a good example of my headache:
Load 1: 300gr SST, 56gr N-120, HPH12 sabots, Win 209, newer Savage vent liner (less than 20 shots), temp ~80F, waited at least 5 min. between shots, 100yds on Lead Sled.
5 shot group: 4.5 inches. However 4 shots were within 2.25 inches, one of the shots was 3.5" low.
Load 2: 300gr XTP, 56gr N-120, Short Black MMP, Win 209, Savage V-L, temp ~80F, waited at least 5 min. between shots, 100yds on Lead Sled.
5 shot group: 4.25 inches. 3 shots in the center were 2" but one shot was 1.75" high and another shot was 2" lower than the three in the center.
Here is a good example of my headache:
Load 1: 300gr SST, 56gr N-120, HPH12 sabots, Win 209, newer Savage vent liner (less than 20 shots), temp ~80F, waited at least 5 min. between shots, 100yds on Lead Sled.
5 shot group: 4.5 inches. However 4 shots were within 2.25 inches, one of the shots was 3.5" low.
Load 2: 300gr XTP, 56gr N-120, Short Black MMP, Win 209, Savage V-L, temp ~80F, waited at least 5 min. between shots, 100yds on Lead Sled.
5 shot group: 4.25 inches. 3 shots in the center were 2" but one shot was 1.75" high and another shot was 2" lower than the three in the center.
I have to wait longer between shots!
IAHUNTER, I read a lot on here about folks waiting 5 minutes between shots and getting good groups. I have the SS with synthetic stock and also a HB. With EITHER rifle, I BETTER wait more like 10 minutes between shots in 80 degree weather to get consistently good groups. With your 5 shot groups, time between shots is even more important as the barrel continues to heat up with each shot. Even at 10 minutes between shots, I still find it important to keep the rifle in the shade. I don't think I'm supposed to say it here, but the MMP sub bases have also proven to be important in CONSISTENTLY getting good results from either of my rifles. My best results come from 43 grains of N110 and 250 SST in both rifles.
It might sound ridiculous, but I have a friend with a private range in his back yard that has gotten his best groups by waiting 24 hours between shots. Yep, one shot per day.
FWIW,
Billy
IAHUNTER, I read a lot on here about folks waiting 5 minutes between shots and getting good groups. I have the SS with synthetic stock and also a HB. With EITHER rifle, I BETTER wait more like 10 minutes between shots in 80 degree weather to get consistently good groups. With your 5 shot groups, time between shots is even more important as the barrel continues to heat up with each shot. Even at 10 minutes between shots, I still find it important to keep the rifle in the shade. I don't think I'm supposed to say it here, but the MMP sub bases have also proven to be important in CONSISTENTLY getting good results from either of my rifles. My best results come from 43 grains of N110 and 250 SST in both rifles.
It might sound ridiculous, but I have a friend with a private range in his back yard that has gotten his best groups by waiting 24 hours between shots. Yep, one shot per day.
FWIW,
Billy
I'll give that a try next time, waiting at least 10 min between shots.
Billy- Can you elaborate on your good groups? Group size, yardage, sabot, vent liner, temp, time between shots, etc?
How much time are other users waiting between shots to get sub 1.5" 3 or 5 shot groups? Can you include your load data?
During the summer months I try to limit my shooting to the early hours of the morning or the 1-2 hours before sundown to take advantage of cooler temps and a less intense sun. Its hard to wait between shots, maybe I'll practice with my bow between shots with my ML.
Billy- Can you elaborate on your good groups? Group size, yardage, sabot, vent liner, temp, time between shots, etc?
How much time are other users waiting between shots to get sub 1.5" 3 or 5 shot groups? Can you include your load data?
During the summer months I try to limit my shooting to the early hours of the morning or the 1-2 hours before sundown to take advantage of cooler temps and a less intense sun. Its hard to wait between shots, maybe I'll practice with my bow between shots with my ML.
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IAhunter said:
Certainly a stock makes a difference-- if your action is moving around in your stock, that is a problem.
Savage sells the laminated stock, but they are $190 or so.
Have you shot your gun in cool weather? Is it blued or stainless?
IAhunter,
I've tried several different loads, but my best has been:
43 grains N110
Wonder Wad
MMP Ballistic Bridge sub base
MMP Sabot, short black
250 grain Shockwave
Winchester 209 primer
RW new ventliner
With this combo, and waiting 10 minutes, I can get 1-1/2 " 100 yd groups fairly consistently, with an occasional better group I can't get consistent sub moa groups, no matter what I do. These groups open up to more like 4" for me at 200 yds. I haven't tried 300 yds, but do plan to.
In cool to cold weather, I could leave out the Wonder Wad and sub base, but since I need them part of the time, I prefer to use them all the time. I believe the WW provides some protection for the sub base and/or sabot and also extends the number of shots between cleaning.
I know a lot of folks are getting much better results than this, but I've been shooting the Savage for several years and this is real world for me. I'm very satisfied with it.
The laminated stock on the HB makes it much more pleasant to shoot, and I have Simms pads on both rifles.
Best regards,
Billy
I've tried several different loads, but my best has been:
43 grains N110
Wonder Wad
MMP Ballistic Bridge sub base
MMP Sabot, short black
250 grain Shockwave
Winchester 209 primer
RW new ventliner
With this combo, and waiting 10 minutes, I can get 1-1/2 " 100 yd groups fairly consistently, with an occasional better group
I can't get consistent sub moa groups, no matter what I do. These groups open up to more like 4" for me at 200 yds. I haven't tried 300 yds, but do plan to.In cool to cold weather, I could leave out the Wonder Wad and sub base, but since I need them part of the time, I prefer to use them all the time. I believe the WW provides some protection for the sub base and/or sabot and also extends the number of shots between cleaning.
I know a lot of folks are getting much better results than this, but I've been shooting the Savage for several years and this is real world for me. I'm very satisfied with it.
The laminated stock on the HB makes it much more pleasant to shoot, and I have Simms pads on both rifles.
Best regards,
Billy
My plastic wonder shoots just fine, works well in rain, looks nice, yada yada...
Yet, if I did it all over again, I would opt for a laminated stock. That is just what I prefer!
Randy, what does plastic add to the accuracy equation? Maybe 1/4" moa average over wood?
Yet, if I did it all over again, I would opt for a laminated stock. That is just what I prefer!
Randy, what does plastic add to the accuracy equation? Maybe 1/4" moa average over wood?
RW-
The action does not appear to have any wiggle, it seems solid.
I purchased the gun in April. After a few shooting sessions my scope base screws had worked loose so I had to throw out those shooting results because I don't know when the bases started to come loose. When I re-mounted the bases I used the red loc-tite. The bases should never come off now. Unfortunately this means my shooting has occurred during the warmer months of May and June. What would you classify as cooler temps? From your experience where should the temps be to get sub MOA accuracy?
My Sav10ML-2 has the black syn stock with the stainless steel barrel.
Billy-
I have some MMP Sub Bases, I'll try those next shooting session along with the increased wait time between shots. I had stopped using them because many users on this message board indicated they were not necessary. Also, the recovered sabots look good. I sent off for some of RW's vent liners on Monday. Maybe they will be the key to MOA bliss. RW if that is the case I will write up a nice testimonial for you.
Thanks for everyone's input.
Curt Wulf
The action does not appear to have any wiggle, it seems solid.
I purchased the gun in April. After a few shooting sessions my scope base screws had worked loose so I had to throw out those shooting results because I don't know when the bases started to come loose. When I re-mounted the bases I used the red loc-tite. The bases should never come off now. Unfortunately this means my shooting has occurred during the warmer months of May and June. What would you classify as cooler temps? From your experience where should the temps be to get sub MOA accuracy?
My Sav10ML-2 has the black syn stock with the stainless steel barrel.
Billy-
I have some MMP Sub Bases, I'll try those next shooting session along with the increased wait time between shots. I had stopped using them because many users on this message board indicated they were not necessary. Also, the recovered sabots look good. I sent off for some of RW's vent liners on Monday. Maybe they will be the key to MOA bliss. RW if that is the case I will write up a nice testimonial for you.
Thanks for everyone's input.
Curt Wulf
