Todays Project - Drilling a Knight Vent Liner Out

[ronlaughlin]

......I have just started testing a new BP for the Knight KRB7 that has a ventliner in it......

The vent liner is brazed in place?? If so, in my experience, the process of brazing the vent liner drastically shortens longevity. If memory serves, i have had four Knight breech plugs with the brazed vent liner. Flash hole erosion was surprisingly quick, all four times. After the brazed vent was removed, all the same plugs with a now removable vent liner worked good.

Well, i intended to measure the vent liner in the UltraLight, but am unable to do so; the rifle is loaded. Have been shooting it with iron sights, getting it ready for next season. The breech plug no longer with a brazed vent liner; now has a home made vent liner that is wearing well, but cannot recall what it measured the last time, after removal, and cleaning. Thinking it now measures 0.029", but am not sure. Powder charge has been only 90 grain Blackhorn, so good longevity is expected. Haven't shot the rifle a whole heck a lot of times this winter neither. Some where around 90 shots i would guess.

 

[ronlaughlin]

500 shots is outstanding . That's about the most I can get out of any 209 plug .

Five hundred isn't as good as infinite, which is what it seems one gets igniting Blackhorn with large rifle magnum primers instead of shotgun primers. Wonder if it is because i was shooting light powder charges?

 

[sabotloader]

Mike,

After seeing how you did your conversions I have been looking around for those bits, but would probably only use them one time so that's my only hang up with getting them. I would like to drill out my original Knight BP from my UL to save as a "just in case spare". Never know when you might drop one and damage it when away on a hunt.

Check your PM's

I was thinking along the same lines, that it is a combination of load and primer together. Primers don't make that much pressure on their own, without a load in front, but it is surprising how much the do make too. With my sealed up breech plug they will move a ramrod with a patched jag about 7 to 8 inches in this KRB. I was curious about the debris from them though going through the flash hole, if it would have a small "Sand blast" effect.

There really is material leaving the primer and passing through the flash hole... with a mag primer that debris and pressure is increased a bunch.

I did not really think about the fact that I was shooting about as fast as I could to cure the bore coat though, but that does make since. I would not normally shoot that way. If I remember right I shot 14 or 15 loads as fast as I could, and with a 120gnV charge....Well it would be warm. :wink:

I would not wanted to stick my tongue on the barrel to test the temp.... I have watched that movie to many times!

This is actually my first time using the Ventliners, so have nothing to base wear on. I have a couple of Lehigh plugs that I got just in case I would happen on a old Disc 1 in 20 or the like, but I got them before Bestills plug came out and I have one of his in my UL. :yeah: I did put that Ventliner in the plug for the next round of testing but now I think I may just take it back out and install a new one so I can compare it to normal shooting.

Is it Lehigh Vent liner from the original conversion or a Lehigh/Knight Vent Liner??? I will tell you I really like the domed vent liner it is a real asset when it comes to blow back on the nose of the primer.

As for which vintage these Lehigh Ventliners are, they are new manufacture. I got the first 2 from ASG in December and then got 4 more last month from Lehigh. ASG don't carry them anymore. I also got 4 (IIRC) of the flat head savage type from ASG as well. Got them to make sure when the plugs were made that both type would work. Those have a .028-.029 Flash hole, but I only shot 8 shots to test ignition and at the moment I don't remember it growing any.

Lehigh was selling the Lehigh/Knight style vent liner for a period of time off their website... so you probably have them. The good Vent Liners are normally darker in color from different metal and heat treating. The flat Savage liners will be the really hardened ones, but with only a 0.028 flash hole - mag primers will have hard time getting gas to the powder - but they work in a smokeless Savage so they should work fine in a Knight..

It is supposed to be blowing up to 14 MPH tomorrow which is not bad but it is also supposed to be blowing some snow too so it will be a wait and see if I can go. What hurts is when that wind comes in off the ocean, it can be down right cold then. Next weekend the club has matches and the next is closed for our annual cleanup and repair weekend.

Yes Sunday isn't looking good for me weather wise either.... I went to the wood shop last week and built a water testing target shooting stand the other day in the shop to test the CF function of Lehigh bullets and I really want to test re-test the 40's that I tested last week.

These are the bullets I was test shooting from a FT 45 Mountaineer

I shoot the Lehigh through the water bottle with different powder loads to check if the CF occurs....

This is a view of the rear of the target - I did not want any wood directly behind the target because I want to try to illustrate the hydrostatic force the bullet created even after losing the petals.

You can see the hydrostatic blast effect in these two pics.

Then when you put the target back together you can see where the petals passed through before the water blast hit the target...

It was fun doing this shooting - but I need to do a repeat...

 

[jsteurrys]

I will be interested in seeing the results from these bullet tests. I am thinking about taking up smoking again using my DISC Elite .45 which is good for the 200 gr and under bullets that you will be testing.

 

[jsteurrys]

In a DISC Elite .45 using 120 gr of BH209 with a 200 gr Knight Bloodline, I got 160 shots out of a Lehigh Vent Liner. It measured 0.036" when I replaced it.

 

[jsteurrys]

Isn't the 2nd bullet from the left 215 gr not 230 gr? I did not see a 230 gr on the website. I know that the 1st bullet is a 230 gr prototype as I still have some of those.

 

[Squeeze]

2 years ago, I neck shot one with the 300 grn lehigh CF. I wish I had taken pictures now. While skinning it, you could plainly see the entrance hole, and exit on the far side, all around the exit were the little shrapnel holes from the petals. IIRC there were two of them still embedded in the far side skin. It's a whole new design concept, but their terminal performance has been proven to me. They sure do expel plenty of energy and devastation in the cavity, the main body makes an exit hole usually, so its the best of both worlds. I have shot a lot of deer with a pretty good assortment of bullets, and for me, right now, I'm sticking with the Knight/lehigh's and pure lead slugs, depending on the gun I use for the season.

 

[sabotloader]

Isn't the 2nd bullet from the left 215 gr not 230 gr? I did not see a 230 gr on the website. I know that the 1st bullet is a 230 gr prototype as I still have some of those.

Jim, No, I do not have any of the 215's, they are shorter than the 230's so they would be more consistent from a FT - although Lehigh had taken them down off the website - I see they are back up again! Do you have any use for the 230 prototypes you have? I would be interested in them if not...

 

[sabotloader]

2 years ago, I neck shot one with the 300 grn lehigh CF. I wish I had taken pictures now. While skinning it, you could plainly see the entrance hole, and exit on the far side, all around the exit were the little shrapnel holes from the petals. IIRC there were two of them still embedded in the far side skin. It's a whole new design concept, but their terminal performance has been proven to me. They sure do expel plenty of energy and devastation in the cavity, the main body makes an exit hole usually, so its the best of both worlds. I have shot a lot of deer with a pretty good assortment of bullets, and for me, right now, I'm sticking with the Knight/lehigh's and pure lead slugs, depending on the gun I use for the season.

Exactly! my experiances have parralled yours... It is really hard to beat a Bloodline!

 

[ShawnT]

Pm returned.

No shooting today but will be out there tomorrow for just a couple hours in the am. Wind should be blowing more but got a call from a club member that wanted to meet and get some bullets I have for his P Dog trip, so will shoot a few while I am out there.

The Breech plug I would like to drill out is the original Lehigh/Knight Plug with Brazed in ventliner that came in my Knight UL. it is up to .037 (almost .038 per my pin gauges). No Idea how many rounds on it since I got the rifle used. Now that I just looked at it the ventliner in the plug and the new ventliners I got look to be the same color. Does Lehigh sell the more hardened one on their site? I only recall seeing the one labeled Muzzleloading ventliner. I would normally shoot the Rem STS in this rifle but may be shooting the Win 209 after those are gone since it is what I feed the UL.

The I fired 8 shots only so far through the Savage Ventliner (3 Win209, 2 RemSTS, 1 each from the Fed and both CCI (Was running out of these). Got cold that day and had to stop. Had no ignition issues with that small flash hole. It is still .029.

The Lehigh plugs I have (from Buddy T) don't come with Ventliners.

The Lehigh ventliners I got from both ASG and direct from Lehigh are a gray color. Not sure if you can tell from this pic.

 

[ShawnT]

......I have just started testing a new BP for the Knight KRB7 that has a ventliner in it......

The vent liner is brazed in place?? If so, in my experience, the process of brazing the vent liner drastically shortens longevity. If memory serves, i have had four Knight breech plugs with the brazed vent liner. Flash hole erosion was surprisingly quick, all four times. After the brazed vent was removed, all the same plugs with a now removable vent liner worked good.

Well, i intended to measure the vent liner in the UltraLight, but am unable to do so; the rifle is loaded. Have been shooting it with iron sights, getting it ready for next season. The breech plug no longer with a brazed vent liner; now has a home made vent liner that is wearing well, but cannot recall what it measured the last time, after removal, and cleaning. Thinking it now measures 0.029", but am not sure. Powder charge has been only 90 grain Blackhorn, so good longevity is expected. Haven't shot the rifle a whole heck a lot of times this winter neither. Some where around 90 shots i would guess.

Hey Ron,

No the Ventliner in my new KRB7 plug is not Brazed in. I had these plugs made up for me. It uses an oring and now a ventliner. Far as I know there are no more factory Plugs sold for this rifle and is why I am doing this. The Ventliner I was using was a new Lehigh. I took that one out of the rifle last night and installed a new Lehigh and will see how that one does comparing them. The new one I just installed was also .031", actually I have 5 of them left and they all measured .031".

 

[ShawnT]

Just curious what is the average life of a vent liner ?.........

Back a few years Lehigh ran out of vent liners for sale; i was forced to make my own. Now a day i still make vent liners from Holo-Krome screws. A #70 drill is used to make the flash hole. Blackhorn is the only powder i shoot. In my experience vent liner wear depends on the amount of powder burned. It seems if one is burning say 110 grain, one can expect the vent liner to last perhaps 250 or so shot. If one is burning about 80 grain powder, the vent liner may last 500, or more shot.

When the flash hole grows to 0.035" i no longer use the vent liner when using shot gun primers, because the pressure on the primer seems excessive. Excessive pressure is indicated, because soot appears between the cup, and the anvil. When burning large rifle magnum primers 0.035" flash hole seems about ideal; the vent liner can continued be used. Interestingly, to me anyway, magnum large rifle primers don't seem to erode the flash hole any further. As long as one prevents the primer seat from flame cutting, one should be able to use the same breech plug/vent liner forever, if one burns large rifle magnum primers.

I have also seen that Large Rifle Mag primers don't erode the flash holes to any degree. I shoot the CCI mag LRP in my Knight MK-95's and one plug was at least 12 years old and while I don't know the exact number of shots it would be close to 2000+ easy in that time. The Flash hole in those plugs were .035 - .036, if I recall correct, and when I had some plugs made up we checked it with Certified Pin gauges in my cousins shop and it was only .038 then. I will say that a lot of the shooting was done with Pyrodex and 777 but did shoot a few hundred with BH in it for a couple years (100gnV).

 

[ronlaughlin]

Hey Ron,

No the Ventliner in my new KRB7 plug is not Brazed in. I had these plugs made up for me. It uses an oring and now a ventliner. Far as I know there are no more factory Plugs sold for this rifle and is why I am doing this. The Ventliner I was using was a new Lehigh. I took that one out of the rifle last night and installed a new Lehigh and will see how that one does comparing them. The new one I just installed was also .031", actually I have 5 of them left and they all measured .031".

Wow, i have only had the brazed vent liners wear fast as you describe, normally loose vent liners last much longer. Some of my vent liners started with a 0.027" flash hole, they seem to work just fine when new, and last longer, because they start smaller. Breech plugs using o-ring, and vent liner should last forever. ☻

The vent liner used in my ultralight now has a flash hole of 0.030". This is after around 100 shots, maybe more, using 90g Blackhorn loads. Believe it was 0.028" when new.

A breech plug utilizing magnum large rifle primers doesn't seem to need a vent liner. It will never wear out, if the primer seals good. :wink:

 

[ShawnT]

A breech plug utilizing magnum large rifle primers doesn't seem to need a vent liner. It will never wear out, if the primer seals good. :wink:

Totally agree with you on that.

It did surprise me as I don't recall any of you that use ventliners to report that kind of wear.

I think Mike might be right about the heat. I shot several 120gnV shots (at least 14-15) as fast as I could pour and load curing the bore coat and got the rifle very warm. It might have been more since I had about 25 pre-charged vials with me too. Later on I was taking the plug out and switching in different o-rings testing ignition. It was some cold and windy that day so was rushing.

Guess I will see when I shoot it again (tomorrow??)and compare it to the first one.

 

[MrTom]

I finally had warm enough temps to spend some time in the garage today and set up the drill press and jig for drilling my CVA plugs. Here's a couple for the Kodiak that will start seeing 209 shortly.

Once a plugs is oriented to the plate in the jig, the jig stays put and the plugs go in and out using the two large hex head nuts [5/8" fine thread I believe] and things move right along. I orient the first plug using a drill bit that is snug in the primer pocket. The plugs seen in the picture have the liners already in place. This works slick for me.

 

[ShawnT]

Ron and mike,

I did get to shoot some today. Windy as heck and it was a cold wind off the ocean too. Fired 3 Win209's primers to foul things, then fired 12 rounds of 120gnV of BH with the last of my 300gn PT golds. 6 shots with Win 209 and 6 with Rem STS. I fired these in rounds of 2 so as to not heat it up much. Cleaned the plug when I got home and checked the flash hole with my pin gauges. It grew from .031" to .032" (Barely but the gauge did go through when wiggled). 12 shots it grew .001". :huh?: I'm thinking these Lehigh's are not as hard as I though they would be.

 

[ronlaughlin]

My bet is the hole won't grow from 0.032 to 0.033" in 12 more shots. Nor in 24 shots, unless something has really changed with those vent liner.

 

[ShawnT]

My bet is the hole won't grow from 0.032 to 0.033" in 12 more shots. Nor in 24 shots, unless something has really changed with those vent liner.

I sure hope your right. Can't imagine why it would be any different from any other rifle shooting the same powder and primers.

The Club range has matches next weekend and the following is annual cleanup/repair weekend so the weekend of the 28th is the next weekend I can try to shoot some more. If at all possible will try again then. I did put that ventliner back in the rifle.

 

[MrTom]

Just for giggles I ran my gauges thru the 209 plugs from Western Powder as they have had the most 209 usage to date and they are not at .030 yet, but then I am not running a full charge either. One plug is in my Optima Pistol and sees 63 weighed grains of 209 under a 240 grain bullet/sabot. The rifle, an Accura V2, gets a 209 load of 77 grains weighed under a 300 grain bullet/sabot. I think around 100 rounds per plug is close to what's be shot thru each. I clean the plugs very well after shooting and the plugs are stored separate from the guns....not that I think it has much to do with hole erosion. My next investment may be in some of the custom 209 primer blanks that seat a large rifle primer. If what Ron suggests holds tru those could just about eliminate the need for very many extra vent liners to be had on hand.

 

[sabotloader]

Shawn, I think but do not know for sure, that the new Vent Liners are now available on the Lehigh Bullets web site, not Lehigh Defense. I just placed some in my cart and went to check out - the was nothing indicating that they were out of stock.

https://www.lehighbullets.com/product-c ... ventliner/

These are or will be the latest vent liners built for Savage SML application. These should be back to the original version 1 Vent Liner. I think I will be able to tell for sure when they get here.

The one vent liner you have pictured in your picture is a later version of the contract liner and should be the normal liner not the contract liner in the Knight BP or the ones they sold briefly after the contract liners were built.

This is the description of the current liner

Direct replacement vent liner for the Savage MLII muzzleloader and all Lehigh breech plugs.

The domed head and computer modeled internal design improve combusion efficiency and consistency resulting in reduced velocity variation and less ignition fouling.

Vent liners are produced from a MIL-spec steel alloy and are vacuum heat treated to a proprietary multi-step process to extend life.