Traditions Pursuit Help

[ported45]

What grain bullet did he shoot?

300 and then the 250 XTP .452. 250 didn't recoil as much and worked just as well. But the 300 did give him gnat's eyelash accuracy. 250's were still plenty accurate for him out to 150 yards.

 

[Matthew323]

If I had to do all that after every shot I’d give up shooting muzzleloaders.

First of all, the three procedures combined total time won't amount to more than 30-40 additional SECONDS added to the loading procedure. Probably less time once I get into the rhythm of being used to the movements.

It will require EXACTLY, two pin vises in a custom leather sheath on my belt. A #92 vise w/the brass wire rod pick, and a #93 vise w/ the 3.1mm drill bit installed backwards.

For me, as a complete outsider to inline muzzleloaders with NOTHING invested financially, or emotionally, the 209 primer seems to me to be the weak link in the ignition system. Especially, the HARD CARBON BUILD-UP that occurs in the flame channels of all inline breech plugs that use 209 primers.

And, if I can reduce that build-up by carefully, and gently using the blunt, non-cutting, shank end of a 3.1mm drill bit after EVERY SHOT, instead of allowing the build-up to become a problem; then WHY NOT TRY SOMETHING DIFFERENT?

Waiting until the fluted, cutting end of the drill bit is NECESSARY, seems to me to be counterproductive. Remember, I am just looking at the problem from a practical, engineering point of view. From a flintlock shooters aspect with a very similiar set of ignition issues.

 

[CatamountRob]

First of all, the three procedures combined total time won't amount to more than 30-40 additional SECONDS added to the loading procedure. Probably less time once I get into the rhythm of being used to the movements.

It will require EXACTLY, two pin vises in a custom leather sheath on my belt. A #92 vise w/the brass wire rod pick, and a #93 vise w/ the 3.1mm drill bit installed backwards.

For me, as a complete outsider to inline muzzleloaders with NOTHING invested financially, or emotionally, the 209 primer seems to me to be the weak link in the ignition system. Especially, the HARD CARBON BUILD-UP that occurs in the flame channels of all inline breech plugs that use 209 primers.

And, if I can reduce that build-up by carefully, and gently using the blunt, non-cutting, shank end of a 3.1mm drill bit after EVERY SHOT, instead of allowing the build-up to become a problem; then WHY NOT TRY SOMETHING DIFFERENT?

Waiting until the fluted, cutting end of the drill bit is NECESSARY, seems to me to be counterproductive. Remember, I am just looking at the problem from a practical, engineering point of view. From a flintlock shooters aspect with a very similiar set of ignition issues.

Because I can shoot as much as I want without stopping to clean anything.
You have however come up with an excellent solution to a non-problem. Engineers are good at that.

 

[GM54-120]

the 209 primer seems to me to be the weak link in the ignition system. Especially, the HARD CARBON BUILD-UP that occurs in the flame channels of all inline breech plugs that use 209 primers.

Care to guess why i can shoot my NULA for literally 5 range sessions using CCI/CCI Mag primers and i still have hardly any carbon to remove from the channel? Not just mine either, many NULA owners have reported similar findings....I will give you a hint....plug geometry.

 

[deermanok]

I recall that on one occasion I had to use a small drill bit to de-crud the breech plug channel of my pursuit ultra light. Mostly I just used a regular nipple pick to clean it out.

 

[michiganmuzzy]

Not all of us have, can afford, or even want a NULA. Could you show some pics of the breech plug GM54? I dont understand how the geometry prevents build up.

 

[GM54-120]

The better a plug seals, the less carbon builds up. Ive seen this in both my NULA and Lehighs.

The volume of the flash channel is a balancing act. The more volume the less peak reaches the primer BUT more volume means more to fill also. So a larger volume flash channel gets more "back wash" from the powder igniting. The NULA plug channel is short but 5/32 and the primer is fully supported and sealed. Only the rim is not in the pocket. The seal takes place on the rim when the action is closed. The rim is supported by the bolt recess. Headspace is achieved off the rim. Not off the OAL of the primer.

So you are slightly better off with a larger ID such as 5/32" and a bit shorter vs a 1/8" and a longer channel to achieve that volume. Powder sets closer to the primer but you get a similar volume. The larger ID also takes longer to foul enough to cause a missfire.

This is exactly why i say modify the OEM CVA plug to a 5/32 channel and use a vent or TC bushing. You will have a better plug than you can buy. They all use a 1/8" or smaller and are probably a tad longer than needed. It appears to me the Traditions plug should work well for this mod too. At least for a vent liner. Might be a tad short for a bushing. I dont think its primer pocket is deep enough for good primer support with a very small flash channel. Too much of the primer is NOT in the pocket.

 

[Matthew323]

The better a plug seals, the less carbon builds up. Ive seen this in both my NULA and Lehighs.

The volume of the flash channel is a balancing act. The more volume the less peak reaches the primer BUT more volume means more to fill also. So a larger volume flash channel gets more "back wash" from the powder igniting. The NULA plug channel is short but 5/32 and the primer is fully supported and sealed. Only the rim is not in the pocket. The seal takes place on the rim when the action is closed. The rim is supported by the bolt recess. Headspace is achieved off the rim. Not off the OAL of the primer.

So you are slightly better off with a larger ID such as 5/32" and a bit shorter vs a 1/8" and a longer channel to achieve that volume. Powder sets closer to the primer but you get a similar volume. The larger ID also takes longer to foul enough to cause a missfire.

This is exactly why i say modify the OEM CVA plug to a 5/32 channel and use a vent or TC bushing. You will have a better plug than you can buy. They all use a 1/8" or smaller and are probably a tad longer than needed. It appears to me the Traditions plug should work well for this mod too. At least for a vent liner. Might be a tad short for a bushing. I dont think its primer pocket is deep enough for good primer support with a very small flash channel. Too much of the primer is NOT in the pocket.

So, a CVA, BH209, QRBP, breech plug, drilled and tapped for the Lehigh Defense VL-1 vent liner; and with the flash channel enlarged to 5/32" in diameter should have fewer problems with hard carbon build-up in the flash channel, than the Lehigh Defense #BP-BP-C1 BH209 breech plug for CVS rifles & pistols?

 

[Matthew323]

The better a plug seals, the less carbon builds up. Ive seen this in both my NULA and Lehighs.

The volume of the flash channel is a balancing act. The more volume the less peak reaches the primer BUT more volume means more to fill also. So a larger volume flash channel gets more "back wash" from the powder igniting. The NULA plug channel is short but 5/32 and the primer is fully supported and sealed. Only the rim is not in the pocket. The seal takes place on the rim when the action is closed. The rim is supported by the bolt recess. Headspace is achieved off the rim. Not off the OAL of the primer.

So you are slightly better off with a larger ID such as 5/32" and a bit shorter vs a 1/8" and a longer channel to achieve that volume. Powder sets closer to the primer but you get a similar volume. The larger ID also takes longer to foul enough to cause a missfire.

This is exactly why i say modify the OEM CVA plug to a 5/32 channel and use a vent or TC bushing. You will have a better plug than you can buy. They all use a 1/8" or smaller and are probably a tad longer than needed. It appears to me the Traditions plug should work well for this mod too. At least for a vent liner. Might be a tad short for a bushing. I dont think its primer pocket is deep enough for good primer support with a very small flash channel. Too much of the primer is NOT in the pocket.

What about drilling out the flash channel in the Lehigh Defense #BP-BP-C1 breech plug to a diameter of 5/32"?

 

[GM54-120]

So, a CVA, BH209, QRBP, breech plug, drilled and tapped for the Lehigh Defense VL-1 vent liner; and with the flash channel enlarged to 5/32" in diameter should have fewer problems with hard carbon build-up in the flash channel, than the Lehigh Defense #BP-BP-C1 BH209 breech plug for CVS rifles & pistols?

No the standard plug that ships with the CVAs. The BH209 plug is already recessed with a powder pocket. You wont have much room to work with.

Im actually really surprised the Lehigh CVA plug used such a small flash channel. IMO they would be better off with a 5/32" flash channel. I would like to see how deep its primer pocket is vs a CVA or Western BH209 plug. The more primer in the pocket the more peak it can handle. I dont think its gunna be that huge of a deal shooting most sabotted 50s but guys with a 45 shooting sabotless will make way more peak pressure.

Ron posted a total walk through on modding the standard OEM plugs and im pretty sure he also has a Lehigh CVA plug.

 

[ronlaughlin]

Seems like the OEM plug primer socket is about 0.225" deep

Seems like the Lehigh plug primer socket is about 0.221" deep.

 

[Matthew323]

Seems like the OEM plug primer socket is about 0.225" deep

Seems like the Lehigh plug primer socket is about 0.221" deep.

So, I am good to go, as is from the factory, with the brand new, yet to be installed, Lehigh Defense BP-BP-C1 breech plug that I purchased for the Optima V2 pistol?

Is there an advantage to drilling the flash channel out to 5/32" in diameter?

I have yet to purchase drill bits for keeping the flash channel free of hard carbon build-up.

So, 3.1mm bits for a stock breech plug, or 5/32" bits that I use to drill out the flash channel in the LD plug, and keep it clean thereafter?


Thanks

 

[HC]

...... disregard, what I was going to post has nothing concerning the topic.

 

[ronlaughlin]

.....So, 3.1mm bits for a stock breech plug.......

The stock breech plug has a flame channel of 3.0 mm. You would use a 3mm drill. A #32 wire drill may be easier to find and is about 0.002" smaller than 3mm, which is a negligible difference.

You may damage the vent liner threads, if you enlarge the Lehigh flame channel to 5/32". If you are unable to leave the plug as is, you may wish to have a 10-32 tap on hand to repair the threads. There doesn't seem to be a compelling reason to diddle with the breech plug.

 

[Matthew323]

The stock breech plug has a flame channel of 3.0 mm. You would use a 3mm drill. A #32 wire drill may be easier to find and is about 0.002" smaller than 3mm, which is a negligible difference.

You may damage the vent liner threads, if you enlarge the Lehigh flame channel to 5/32". If you are unable to leave the plug as is, you may wish to have a 10-32 tap on hand to repair the threads. There doesn't seem to be a compelling reason to diddle with the breech plug.

Thank you for the additional information, I have no desire to modify the stock BP-BP-C1 breech plug.

I am so new to inline m-l, that I DON'T KNOW WHAT I DON'T KNOW. My experience lies with sidelock flintlocks, which I know well. This Optima V2 pistol is a whole new world of m-l to learn.

I am counting on my fellow experienced forum members to keep me straight, and to hopefully avoid making too many costly mistakes.

Thanks to everyone that has tolerated my incessant questions, and taken the time to patiently explain things to me.

 

[Matthew323]

Drills and Cutters.com has just about every fractional, number/wire, and metric jobber length drill bit that you might want. From Chinese-made, Qualtech bits, to various American-made bits; at escalating prices.

In another post someone stated that the flame channel for the Lehigh Defense breech plugs was 0.122". That is why I was going to purchase 3.1mm drill bits, which measure 0.122".

Now I am confused.

3mm, or 3.1mm?

I have no means of measuring the flame channel in the plug, as I am re-starting my m-l journey totally from scratch with ZERO TOOLS TO START WITH.

I sold off all of my weapons, including m-l's, in 1994. I lost EVERYTHING, and became homeless in late December, 2015.

I used part of the Stimulus Check, and will use what I can of a limited fixed income to purchase, hopefully, only those items that are absolutely necessary for shooting the pistol.

The NICE-TO-HAVE THINGS CAN COME LATER!!!!!

Thanks for everyone's help.
Bruce

 

[birdog]

Who does a Traditions Pursuit Pro breech plug mod? A friend of mine has the Pursuit Pro and he would like to upgrade his breech plug or have it drilled for a vent liner.

 

[ronlaughlin]

Here is what you do Bruce.

Use a 1/8" drill, to clean the carbon in the Lehigh breech plug. Remove the vent liner each time you clean the plug. Use this plug. Eventually the vent liner will wear out. When the flash hole is about 0.036" replace the worn vent liner with a new one.

The stock plug has a 3mm flame channel. Set the plug aside. No need for it since you have the Lehigh plug to use

Good Luck.

 

[ronlaughlin]

Bruce,

How will you tell when the vent liner is worn out? If the primers leak between the anvil, and the cup, there is too much pressure. Indicates the flash hole is too large. If powder goes through the flash hole. Indicates the flash hole is too large.

 

[edmehlig]

How many shots can one expect out of a traditions pursuit breech plug before the flashole wears out using A load of 100gr of BH209 shooting 250gr bullets?