Density of Blackhorn Powder

Blackhorn has been my powder of choice ever since it was available to purchase. Early on, i started using this powder drop to fill Lane' tubes.





The adjustment of the powder drop was determined by weighing the volume of powder it threw, using the scale. What i did was use the weight to volume conversion provided by Western Powders. Then i would record the volume setting on the drop, and whenever i changed the charge, i referred to the record.





However, most every time i purchased a new batch of powder, i noticed when i set the drop according to the recorded information, the weight of the powder didn't turn out to be what is was supposed to be. Thus i was always forever adjusting the settings of the powder drop from what the record said it should be. Yesterday, i emptied a bottle, and refilled it with powder from a 'new' 5 pound jug.



100g volume from the new lot weighs 70g

100g volume from the emptied lot weighs 67g



Thus when i filled the powder drop from the new lot it bottomed the scale, so i had to readjust the setting on the powder drop like i have had to do every time a new batch of powder came to the house. This way the actual weight of powder used over the years has been about the same.

As an aside, Western Powders sent me a couple boxes of their vials, which i have been using for, i think, 3 years now. Using these vials when going to shoot paper or water jugs greatly speeds the measuring process, since one need not unscrew the lids just pop them off, and on. The vials work great for the range, however, i still use Lane' tubes when i hunt, because i don't want loose powder in my pocket, which happens when the non-threaded lids pop off.

I also noticed a density change from one container, which happened to be a 10 ounce unit, and the new jug which is a 5 lb unit. Not a big deal IMO, but all the more reason to check weight. I don't think a grain makes much difference, and when I weigh loads, plus or minus 3 tenths is good enough. My experience is that 110 by volume is the optimum charge and that is based upon 2 Triumphs, 1 Encore and 1 FX. 115 only opened up the groups and I saw no point to seeing results at 112.5.

The savings associated with 5 lbs. and buying from Ed's makes almost all other retailers look like price gougers.

Best regards from the cob pile.
Cob

I weigh all of my charges. I do not use any powder by volume any longer. A change of 2 grains does make a difference. It just depends on how far you are shooting. I shoot my Omega to 300 yards and I can see a difference in the groups when the charge is not consistent. I weigh to +- .1 gr and I can shoot just over 1 MOA at 300 yards. As I work up a load for my RemPac, it will also be weighed charges. I plan to shoot it out to 500 yards.

Back then i always made my loads weigh the same when i opened a new jug of powder from a different lot. Today, i learned from the experts, i should have maintained the same volume, not the same weight. :mrgreen: What can i say? I am always ron. Now we know why i fine tune my sights ever now and again.

I too used to weigh charges of Black Horn 209 and other powders. It seemed to be a craze for a while. But it got too tedious and my accuracy, weighed VS volume really was no different. This was especially true with Black Powder and Pyrodex.

That maybe true up close but at distance it makes difference when black powder is weighed or not

I would ask exactly what is causing the change in density. Is it a nitro based part or a organic based part. BH209 get the vast majority of its energy from the nitrated part. Its grain size and shape is extremely uniform so that is likely not it but it might be.

Have you compared the grains from various lots?

Corncob said:

I also noticed a density change from one container, which happened to be a 10 ounce unit, and the new jug which is a 5 lb unit. Not a big deal IMO, but all the more reason to check weight. I don't think a grain makes much difference, and when I weigh loads, plus or minus 3 tenths is good enough. My experience is that 110 by volume is the optimum charge and that is based upon 2 Triumphs, 1 Encore and 1 FX. 115 only opened up the groups and I saw no point to seeing results at 112.5.

The savings associated with 5 lbs. and buying from Ed's makes almost all other retailers look like price gougers.

Best regards from the cob pile.
Cob

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Ed's?

Ed's? https://www.edsgunshop.com/

Last i heard from Carlos at Ed's is that they no longer ship powders.

A 5lber is about $218 plus shipping and hazmat at Powder Valley or Midsouth Shooters Supply.

Well i guess i am convinced............mostly. The energy contained in Blackhorn is more determined by it's volume, than by it's weight. One of them... strange, but true? :huh?: One thing is certain; different lots of Blackhorn vary in density.

It seems when one opens a new jug of Blackhorn, one needs to find the new density, if one wishes to measure by weight, and keep the same velocity. If one measures by volume, opening a new jug doesn't change one's load.

So a 3gr weight variation could be calculated as a 2.1gr volume variation if weighed.

.7x3gr=2.1gr

For the sake of argument i would say neither will have a huge impact on fps if shooting 100gr by volume or 70gr by weight. At least not enough to make a noticeable difference in hunting deer size game out to 200yards.

Its my understanding that benchrest shooters often measure by volume to achieve as close to 100% load density as possible. Load density is restricted by bullet weight and case volume. A muzzleloader has no such restriction. We should always be at 100% or compressed regardless of the load for safety reasons. A tiny increase in volume seems to be almost insignificant.

Here is more information; not mine.

120 gr vol. 87 gr. by weight With 270 bullet 2200 fps. This was developed with a april 2016 lot of powder.

....... New November 2016 lot of powder and same 87 gr by weight result was only 2080 fps.
........volume was 108 . So did a 120 gr volume charge, result 2200 fps; it weighs 94 gr weight.

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I would agree that a 12gr by volume variation is a lot and care should be taken especially when loading at max recommended levels. That fps difference would be quite noticeable for anyone punching paper or longer range hunting.

Wow 12 grain variation . I had almost 9 grains . I have just been shooting 110 by volume . I need to chronograph my load to see the variation in speed . That's kinda crazy to loose over 100 fps

This is very interesting to me. I'm having a hard time understanding why/how the variance could be so much. To look at the powder, it looks very uniform compared to other powders. Hard to think that the density could change that much lot to lot, and if so...why.
Regardless...thanks for sharing, good info for sure.

To measure by weight seems straightforward to me. Put the powder in a pan, adjust your weights (I only have a beam scale), read what you have.

Volume, on the other hand, seems like there is plenty of room for error. Have 10 different people with 10 different powder volume measures, I think you would see a large variance. Now, weigh those 10 different measurements and post the results on the net. Some will say the volume measures are off, some will say the weight measurements are off, some will say the powder is off. I think a lot of the error comes from the volume measurement.

BuckDoeHunter said:

To measure by weight seems straightforward to me. Put the powder in a pan, adjust your weights (I only have a beam scale), read what you have.

Volume, on the other hand, seems like there is plenty of room for error. Have 10 different people with 10 different powder volume measures, I think you would see a large variance. Now, weigh those 10 different measurements and post the results on the net. Some will say the volume measures are off, some will say the weight measurements are off, some will say the powder is off. I think a lot of the error comes from the volume measurement.

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I certainly have to agree. This has definitely been my experience. It would certainly seem to me that any difference would be particle size and smaller size would pack tighter in a volume measure. I have not noticed any difference in poi or velocity measuring by weight.

OK, i agree too. Measuring by weight is easier, and seems more accurate. We will not be able to agree with each other when we compare volume, because all volume measures do not measure the same, nor do we, each of us, use the same measuring technique.

This i know. The weight of my practice load is 60 grain. The weight of my hunting load is 75 grain. If asked what the volume of these loads are; i cannot answer, because i don't know.

What i do know is different lots of Blackhorn have different densities. Whenever i empty a jug, and begin a new jug with a different lot number, i just weigh out the same weights, and proceed. However, people in the know, say my loads using the new powder will have different velocities, than the same weight loads using the now empty jug. People in the know say if i want to shoot the same velocities when using a new jug of powder, i need to measure the same volume from the two different lot number. What this means is, when one empties a jug, and opens a new jug, one needs to establish a new powder weight, if one wishes to shoot the same velocity. Perhaps this explains why i need to fine tune my sights, from time to time.

Using the same measure, and the same technique, one measures volume of powder from any lot of powder, and one gets the same velocity. However, because the densities of the different lots are not the same, one needs to measure the new weight of the volume from the new lot. One then uses the new weight, if one wishes to measure the powder by weight, and have the same velocity.

Good post
Ronlaughlin

This doesn't effect most shooting under 200 yds with acceptable accuracy and using from same jug of powder for many seasons.

But if you shot 500 yds and want moa accuracy and use 4 or 5 jugs of powder it matters.

It gets important when go to a 5 shoot relay at 500 yds and there's no practice or spotters.
Shoot 5 and score 5

Or more important if taking live game at long range i want to eliminate every variable possible. Wind is tuff enuf