Before I begin whining and griping, I would like to express my extreme pride, joy and gratitude to the hunting gods for being able to witness my son take his first ever buck, a beautiful south Texas 9 pointer while we were hunting together last week. He made an excellent shot on a great buck, I hope it is the first of many that I will be able to share with him. After he got his buck, we returned to hunt the same area that evening. I was carrying a winchester Apex .50 cal, 120 grains 777 with the 250 grain Barnes TMZ, a very accurate load in that rifle. I was curious to see how this load would perform, so when a large doe stepped out of the brush at 85 yards I shot her behind the shoulder. She kicked at the shot and ran about 50 yards into the brush, stopped and stood there. I could see a large hole right on the money spot and expected her to fall any moment. She stepped behind a live oak which prevented a follow up shot, but did not go down. After several minutes of this it became clear that something was very wrong with the shot, so I maneuvered around and finished it with my son's .243. Examination showed that the Barnes had penetrated the brisket almost to the rib, maybe 3/4 of an inch and stopped, it cracked two ribs upon impact, but did not penetrate them. The impact of the second shot must have knocked the TMZ loose, as I found the perfectly expanded Barnes projectile laying on the %$#&*^%$&& dirt next to the deer. A four letter moment for sure. I really don't know what to think, seems to me that thousands of guys kill thousands of deer every year wiht Barnes bullets, anyone else had trouble with TMZ's?...mystified
Barnes Disaster
- Thread starter ElkJunkie
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A 120 grain charge of 777 with a Barnes 250 Gr. TMZ I would consider a "ELK" load.
I read your story...but there is something misssing here. Your velocity should have been 2100+ and the bullet failed to pass the ribs???
Most on this forum don't recover their Barnes Bullets and you found your yours laying next to the Deer. I do believe you. There are always exceptions to the rule and this is likely one on them.
I have killed 5 or 6 deer with the 200 gr. Barnes with just 90 grs. of 777 and complete penitration was never a issue.
I am as confussed as you.
I read your story...but there is something misssing here. Your velocity should have been 2100+ and the bullet failed to pass the ribs???
Most on this forum don't recover their Barnes Bullets and you found your yours laying next to the Deer. I do believe you. There are always exceptions to the rule and this is likely one on them.
I have killed 5 or 6 deer with the 200 gr. Barnes with just 90 grs. of 777 and complete penitration was never a issue.
I am as confussed as you.
Choc-Dog thanks for the reply. I agree something is missing, but I don't know where. Immediately before loading the rifle I charged 3 speedloaders from the same measure, I checked them again from the same measure and another back at the house yesterday and they checked out 120 grains. Nothing was substituted in the load, point of impact on the deer was constent with expectations from the range, I am confidant that I was not undercharged, time elapsed was only about 1 1/2 hours between loading and the shot, conditions were dry. Thinking on it now, I did not find the polymer tip in the deer. The Barnes sabots are very tight in my bore when it is cold and clean. I use the aligner tool on my ramrod but not my starter, could I have pushed the tip down into the cavity while loading? Would partial expansion be enough to prohibit penetration? It seems like an unlikely scenario, but so does finding your bullet laying on the ground, I feel like it has to be an operator error
That IS strange? A friend of mine used a 240 XTP in his Omega this year to shoot a buck @115yds. the bullet broke a rib going in destroyed the heart lungs,broke another rib exiting,and darn near took the off side front leg off,and this was with 100grs. of Pyrodex! Sure can't figure out what happened in your shot though :?
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Would the bullet not being seated completely and not compacting the powder cause loss of velocity and this type of situation?
Alrayg1954,
Good point, but if his velocity loss was that great by not seating the bullet firmly on top of the powder his velocty loss would have prevented him from hitting the deer even at 85 yards I would think. :?:
Having that extra air chamber from a improperly seated bullet increases the burn time on the powder to reach peak pressure. The Barnes bullet is still designed to open up at 1,000 feet per second and the bullet did expand but did not penatrate.
Alrays1954 suggestion maybe the best explanation.
choc-dog
Good point, but if his velocity loss was that great by not seating the bullet firmly on top of the powder his velocty loss would have prevented him from hitting the deer even at 85 yards I would think. :?:
Having that extra air chamber from a improperly seated bullet increases the burn time on the powder to reach peak pressure. The Barnes bullet is still designed to open up at 1,000 feet per second and the bullet did expand but did not penatrate.
Alrays1954 suggestion maybe the best explanation.
choc-dog
That is realy strange! I shot two deer this year with a 120gr charge of 777 and a 290 gr TMZ. The first one I hit just behind the front shoulder and took out one lung, continued on thtough the liver and exited just in front of rear leg (55 yds). The other one was hit just behind front shoulder and it just touched the heart and took out both lungs, exiting other side (35yds). The first one ran about 30 yds and the second dropped in its tracks.
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I'm Puzzled too. You found the bullet laying beside the deer? Not where the deer was standing when hit?
I'm suprized that getting hit with a 243 pill would jar a bullet loose and the short run didn't.
Al
I'm suprized that getting hit with a 243 pill would jar a bullet loose and the short run didn't.
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Gentlemen,
Welcome to the Twilight Zone :shock:
Whitesmoke
Welcome to the Twilight Zone :shock:
Whitesmoke
Strange things happen in hunting, whether with centerfires, bows or muzzleloaders. But I have seen stranger things with blackpowder guns than I have with the other two combined.
On 12/09/06 I was hunting out of a ladder stand overlooking a steep draw where a feeder stream runs down into a creek. The creek is about 85 yards to the right of the stand, downhill about 45 degrees. At 7:50 AM I had one of a gaggle of does I had been seeing all morning come back down the opposite bank of the creek. I was watching her in my scope, but I didn't want to shoot a deer (unless it was a monster buck) on that side, since it leads into nasty briers and it is a $*&#@ of a drag back up the hill.
But while watching her, my binos slipped a little off of a fold in my coveralls and they hit the rail of the stand. Busted! She stayed 100% broadside but she turned her head and bored holes through me. I figured if I didn't take her, she'd clear out and take all the rest of the slickheads with her. And I needed the meat! So I aimed just behind the left shoulder and squeezed of the shot.
Two 50-grain Pyrodex pellets sent a 300 grain T/C Bonded Shockwave about 90 yards into her chest. She immediately fell over on her right side and (since this was my first kill with this bullet) I figured that was that. But, she got up and walked about 30 yards into the thicket and bedded down. I watched her for over an hour through my binos, head up and tail twitching. Due to her moving off into the briers, I had no follow-up shot out of the stand. I was afraid that she might get up and move in deeper, so I slo-o-ow-ly climbed down and began to crawl closer. Taking about 25 minutes to get 30 yards closer, I drove a 295 grain Powerbelt Aerotip into her and she plopped over.
When I got over to her, I saw that the bullet had actually hit the shoulder right behind the leg joint, breaking it. Then instead of continuing on and plowing into the vitals, it made a 90 degree turn south and exited out of the bottom of the brisket, missing the heart and the lungs. How a bonded-core bullet did not keep going straight after hitting a doe's shoulder is beyond me, but that's what it did. Thankfully I was able to sneak quietly without spooking her and put that finisher in her.
On 12/09/06 I was hunting out of a ladder stand overlooking a steep draw where a feeder stream runs down into a creek. The creek is about 85 yards to the right of the stand, downhill about 45 degrees. At 7:50 AM I had one of a gaggle of does I had been seeing all morning come back down the opposite bank of the creek. I was watching her in my scope, but I didn't want to shoot a deer (unless it was a monster buck) on that side, since it leads into nasty briers and it is a $*&#@ of a drag back up the hill.
But while watching her, my binos slipped a little off of a fold in my coveralls and they hit the rail of the stand. Busted! She stayed 100% broadside but she turned her head and bored holes through me. I figured if I didn't take her, she'd clear out and take all the rest of the slickheads with her. And I needed the meat! So I aimed just behind the left shoulder and squeezed of the shot.
Two 50-grain Pyrodex pellets sent a 300 grain T/C Bonded Shockwave about 90 yards into her chest. She immediately fell over on her right side and (since this was my first kill with this bullet) I figured that was that. But, she got up and walked about 30 yards into the thicket and bedded down. I watched her for over an hour through my binos, head up and tail twitching. Due to her moving off into the briers, I had no follow-up shot out of the stand. I was afraid that she might get up and move in deeper, so I slo-o-ow-ly climbed down and began to crawl closer. Taking about 25 minutes to get 30 yards closer, I drove a 295 grain Powerbelt Aerotip into her and she plopped over.
When I got over to her, I saw that the bullet had actually hit the shoulder right behind the leg joint, breaking it. Then instead of continuing on and plowing into the vitals, it made a 90 degree turn south and exited out of the bottom of the brisket, missing the heart and the lungs. How a bonded-core bullet did not keep going straight after hitting a doe's shoulder is beyond me, but that's what it did. Thankfully I was able to sneak quietly without spooking her and put that finisher in her.
Like bdhuntr, I had a bullet take a turn this year also. I shot a buck, at 55 yds., with 120 grs of loose 777 and a 290 grain Barnes TMZ. The bullet hit just behind the front shoulder, a little high, and took out one lung and then turned and went through the liver and exited just in front of the rear leg, on the opposite side. The deer ran about 30 yds and piled up.
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Now were talking 'bout the Outer Limits!
Whitesmoke
Whitesmoke
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wierd
It does sound logical since you said you didn't find the tip and that the bullet was expanded that it hit something else on the way to the deer. Doesn't seem like it would expand if it were just going slow and slapped the side of the deer. Even 1000 fps seems like it would penetrate.
Tom
It does sound logical since you said you didn't find the tip and that the bullet was expanded that it hit something else on the way to the deer. Doesn't seem like it would expand if it were just going slow and slapped the side of the deer. Even 1000 fps seems like it would penetrate.
Tom
