BH209 and light <200 gr bullets?

[Brayhaven]

Pardon me if this has been discussed. I shoot lighter bullets in my knight disc as they’re more comfortable. Barnes 200 XPB. Has the correct breech plug etc for bh209, but I was getting inconsistent ignition. Occasional bloopers. I switched to 777 or Swiss BP 3F and of course, those problems went away. But I don’t like the fouling. I’m wondering if it’s the barrel seal of the lighter bullet or lack of back pressure with the BH. Or is it simply that it doesn’t like light bullets? If I seated a 32 ga .520“ wad tightly over the powder, would that work? Will that negatively affect the sealing of the sabot? Or am I just stuck with easier to ignite propellants?
thanks for any experience in this regard.
nothing more disappointing than drawing down on a deer or pig and having your gun go “pfffft” instead of bang.

 

[DJ_Brutus]

Discussion on this in the following thread:
https://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/threads/shooting-45-200-gr-bullets.56569/

 

[Brayhaven]

Discussion on this in the following thread:
https://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/threads/shooting-45-200-gr-bullets.56569/

I saw that. I’m trying to get them to shoot reliably with bh209.
i shoot 200gr and below fine with Swiss & 777

 

[DJ_Brutus]

My only guess would be if the sabot is fitting tight enough. I know they say BH needs pressure to fully ignite. Wish I had more to offer!

 

[BigBoresmokepole]

Pardon me if this has been discussed. I shoot lighter bullets in my knight disc as they’re more comfortable. Barnes 200 XPB. Has the correct breech plug etc for bh209, but I was getting inconsistent ignition. Occasional bloopers. I switched to 777 or Swiss BP 3F and of course, those problems went away. But I don’t like the fouling. I’m wondering if it’s the barrel seal of the lighter bullet or lack of back pressure with the BH. Or is it simply that it doesn’t like light bullets? If I seated a 32 ga .520“ wad tightly over the powder, would that work? Will that negatively affect the sealing of the sabot? Or am I just stuck with easier to ignite propellants?
thanks for any experience in this regard.
nothing more disappointing than drawing down on a deer or pig and having your gun go “pfffft” instead of bang.

I had the same thing with black horn powder in my accura v2 50 cal using the bh breach plug alot of hang fires. And when it did fire it would split the primer and had blow back in my firing pin and hammer. I switched to whitehot pellets and the normal breach plug and problem solved. I was shooting at 300yrds the other day at a 6in paper plate a few days ago was able to get on the plate but all over the plate with the Kronos 3x9 bdc scope. I need a more magnified scope to get groups tighter on the plate. That is to far for my crosshairs , the crosshairs are covering the plate. I was shooting 3 whitehots and cheepshot sabots 240grn. I don't want to shoot any farther than that because of the scope I have only has a bdc for 300yrds cva ballistic chart says with that load its about 18in. Drop at that distance that came with the gun.
.

 

[rp10ml]

You did not mention what primers you are using? For years I shot a T/C Omega .50 cal. with the Barnes 195BX and the MMP Blue HPH Sabot using Blackhorn 209. The Blackhorn requires you use a Magnum Primer, CCI 209M or Federal 209A . I always used the Fed. 209A and never had an issue even in - temps.

https://blackhorn209.com/specs/prim...used in a poorly designed breech plug system.

 

[HC]

Is the flash channel clean?

Assuming your Knight plug is designed something like this. Use a drill bit to ream the carbon out of the flash channel. The flash hole should be cleaned gently so as not to speed up erosion.

View attachment 31356

 

[BigBoresmokepole]

I was using fed 209a primers. And my bh breach plug flash hole was clear. I have moved on with not using bh powder. I have a friend that had the same issue with black horn he went with 777 loose powder and he likes that but has the crud ring but it goes bang when he pulls trigger every time he says. I like whitehots I can shoot about 7 to 10 times without swabbing between shots I don't get the crud ring with this set up . My current primers are remington clean bores and I use synthetic 2 stroke oil for swabing bore followed by dry patch. All I can say find a combo that works for accuracy and how much work for cleaning your gun you can stand doing . But loose powder for some is the best for them some not so much. Find something that's works and stay with it. Going Coyote hunting with mine now good luck and have fun getting tuned in .

 

[GM54-120]

Has the correct breech plug etc for bh209, but I was getting inconsistent ignition.

What correct breech plug? All the newer Knight plugs ignite BH209 but the FPJ plug can be finicky.

What sabot?

What 209 primer?

When was the last time you cleaned out the flash channel with a 5/32nd drill bit?

 

[LBAhunter]

I shot BH209 with 185gr bullets in an Optima V2 50. I never had a issue.

 

[Brayhaven]

What correct breech plug? All the newer Knight plugs ignite BH209 but the FPJ plug can be finicky.

What sabot?

What 209 primer?

When was the last time you cleaned out the flash channel with a 5/32nd drill bit?

Lehigh bare primer plug with replaceable flash hole inserts. MM & harvester, WW209 primers.
and yes I clean everything after every shooting session.

 

[Brayhaven]

I shot BH209 with 185gr bullets in an Optima V2 50. I never had a issue.

What sabots were you using? maybe your bore is tighter than my knight.

 

[Brayhaven]

I was using fed 209a primers. And my bh breach plug flash hole was clear. I have moved on with not using bh powder. I have a friend that had the same issue with black horn he went with 777 loose powder and he likes that but has the crud ring but it goes bang when he pulls trigger every time he says. I like whitehots I can shoot about 7 to 10 times without swabbing between shots I don't get the crud ring with this set up . My current primers are remington clean bores and I use synthetic 2 stroke oil for swabing bore followed by dry patch. All I can say find a combo that works for accuracy and how much work for cleaning your gun you can stand doing . But loose powder for some is the best for them some not so much. Find something that's works and stay with it. Going Coyote hunting with mine now good luck and have fun getting tuned in .

Thanks for your input. That where I am now, but would like to shoot up the BH209 I have. And the cleaning (lack of) was nice when I used it. Just don’t trust it anymore. Haven’t ever tried white hots or pioneer. Have had pretty good results with T7, but what I have is old (10 yrs) and I understand it deteriorates. have to clean the crud ring between shots too.
might be time to go back to good ole black, which lasts forever. I buy Swiss 3F 25# at a time for my wife & I to compete in traditional matches.

 

[Brayhaven]

You did not mention what primers you are using? For years I shot a T/C Omega .50 cal. with the Barnes 195BX and the MMP Blue HPH Sabot using Blackhorn 209. The Blackhorn requires you use a Magnum Primer, CCI 209M or Federal 209A . I always used the Fed. 209A and never had an issue even in - temps.

https://blackhorn209.com/specs/prim...used in a poorly designed breech plug system.

I’m using winchester 209s. They’re long enough to seal in my breech plug and pretty hot, though not quite as hot as the 209M or 209A federal. Much easier to clean. There’s a shim setup for adapting to shorter primers, but don’t recall where I saw it.
but a powder you can’t light with a standard 209 primer isn’t reliable for hunting IMO, especially if your paying 140 bucks a pound for it.
hopefully someone will come out with a competing product in the near future.

 

[BigBoresmokepole]

Thanks for your input. That where I am now, but would like to shoot up the BH209 I have. And the cleaning (lack of) was nice when I used it. Just don’t trust it anymore. Haven’t ever tried white hots or pioneer. Have had pretty good results with T7, but what I have is old (10 yrs) and I understand it deteriorates. have to clean the crud ring betwee

n shots too.
might be time to go back to good ole black, which lasts forever. I buy Swiss 3F 25# at a time for my wife & I to compete in traditional matches.

Try white hots you will be surprised on the performance. I use 3 whitehots 240 cheap shots sabots and it is a tac driver at 100yrds but it will kick hard but my gun is rated for the magnum load accura v2 50. I found out you don't need the bh breach plug for 777 loose powder. Also the other brands of powder out there work with stock plug. Bh powder cva recommends the bh plug. I think the flash channel is to short in the bh plug and it puts to much pressure on the primer cup and spits that's what it does in my gun good luck with the bh powder

 

[Brayhaven]

Try white hots you will be surprised on the performance. I use 3 whitehots 240 cheap shots sabots and it is a tac driver at 100yrds but it will kick hard but my gun is rated for the magnum load accura v2 50. I found out you don't need the bh breach plug for 777 loose powder. Also the other brands of powder out there work with stock plug. Bh powder cva recommends the bh plug. I think the flash channel is to short in the bh plug and it puts to much pressure on the primer cup and spits that's what it does in my gun good luck with the bh powder

Thanks, I’ll try them, but prefer loose powder. Might find a load that works though. I shoot light bullets, for the low recoil. both shoulders bad from shooting, rodeo wrecks and a plane crash. I‘ll shoot up this BH but won’t buy it again. Probably just shoot Swiss BP. As much as I buy of the stuff, I’m sure I’m on the terror watch list

thanks again for your input. Good bunch of shooters on here.

 

[MrTom]

As mentioned, BH likes to have good loading pressure. It could very well be that your sabot and a 200 grain, .40 cal bullet simply doesn’t offer enough weight (pressure)(barrel resistance) for that particular gun to shoot the charge of bh you’re loading.

 

[LBAhunter]

What sabots were you using? maybe your bore is tighter than my knight.

MMP black. It was snug, not overly tight. Just a good 2 hand push down the barrel.

 

[GM54-120]

I just scratch my head when i see posts like this about a Knight with the Lehigh plug. Ive had 1....yes 1 FTF with Knights and that was with a FPJ plug i forgot to clean. Thats well over 10 bottles of BH209 worth of shots and no less than 5 different rifles.

Every time we figure it out its been user error such as swabbing and solvent gets in the plug. I meen how is it i can shoot a 350gr conical with wad using just a Win209 and never had a fail to fire and someone doing everything "right" has tons of issues?

Ive shot gobs of 40cal 180s and 200s but virtually all in 45cal rifles. Not a single hiccup. Dropping down to a 45cal ML is simply a better platform for shooting lighter bullets. No fast twist needed either. The 1-30s shoot them fine.

 

[Ka'imiloa]

Pardon me if this has been discussed. I shoot lighter bullets in my knight disc as they’re more comfortable. Barnes 200 XPB. Has the correct breech plug etc for bh209, but I was getting inconsistent ignition. Occasional bloopers. I switched to 777 or Swiss BP 3F and of course, those problems went away. But I don’t like the fouling. I’m wondering if it’s the barrel seal of the lighter bullet or lack of back pressure with the BH. Or is it simply that it doesn’t like light bullets? If I seated a 32 ga .520“ wad tightly over the powder, would that work? Will that negatively affect the sealing of the sabot? Or am I just stuck with easier to ignite propellants?
thanks for any experience in this regard.
nothing more disappointing than drawing down on a deer or pig and having your gun go “pfffft” instead of bang.

Yes, shooting a lighter bullet with BH 209 is like shooting it with a light bullet, or low neck tension, or no crimp, in a cartridge. BH 209 has the ignition characteristics of a modern smokeless powder. So anything that you can do with your load to increase what is the equivalent of the above criteria will increase the capability of BH 209 to burn well and go BANG in a ML. So that means a tighter bullet/sabot fit in the bore (slightly larger bullet or slightly thicker sabot). Or possibly a tight hard-card wad in the bottom of the sabot, to increase the friction between sabot and bore during firing (thus harder to load too, especially if the bore is fouled, so be sure you have a good stout range rod with you when you try this in case the loading is particularly difficult.)
The idea of a suitable wad over the powder has possible merit, but not if it damages the critical skirt of the sabot, or simply mis-shapes it so it is uneven as it leaves the muzzle. Accuracy will disappear.
Another trick for a tighter sabot/bullet unit is to very lightly "grease" your sabot before loading by rubbing it on your nostril side or forehead, and especially to at least lightly clean your bore, or dry-brush it with barrel held upside down, before loading again)
And anytime there is a question on ignition with BH 209, there are three particular things to consider: are you using a BH 209 breechplug, is it actually clean - especially the small orifice portion, and -- if necessary -- are you using the Fed. or CCI magnum 209 primer?
Aloha, Ka'imiloa