BH209.. Doing something wrong?

[Brayhaven]

Tried BH209 in my Knifght disc extreme (FPJ) and had disappointing results, variation in velocity, poor accuracy. From 1400 down to 600 fps (blooper, hang fire) etc. CCI 209M mag primers and Win 209. (@ 100 gr (volume) loads that shoot 1800 fps+ with T7) Thought it might be lighter bullets 200-225 in harvester & MMP sabots. But the loads shoot fine with T7.. (refuse to use pyrodex in anything . Pretty new to this modern stuff though have been shooting & building traditional guns for close to 50yrs and still shoot a couple matches a month.

I would like to use BH209, but reliability is first. I did put a Lehigh BP in it. But the bore end looks about the same as the orig (insert soldered in place).

Tried to use a tight bullet sabot combo and swabbed between shots with my BP ML mixture of alcohol & castor oil. Got way more crud out than I do with T7.

Haven't shot the new bare primer setup yet (with BH), but any suggestions welcome.
Thanks in advance,
Greg

 

[GM54-120]

I was not thrilled with the FPJ when using BH209. The small flash channel filled quickly with carbon and they leak. IMO bare primer is far superior when using BH209.

Check yours for primer crush using a Win209. They are the longest. Measure a new primer and insert it in the bolt. Close the action and remove the unfired primer. Measure it again. If you got a .003-.005 crush on the primer you should be good to go.

CCI209Ms are much shorter so they may need a shim in the primer pocket to crush.

Dont swab between shots with BH209. There is no need the vast majority of the time. Its a nitro based powder with some organic compounds added. Heavier bullets might yield better results. BH209 does seem to be more efficient with a 300gr. Im not sure if just moving upto a 250gr would be much of a difference over a 225gr. The barrel might simply prefer a heavier bullet.

 

[cayuga]

I know to many that BH209 is the dream come true powder to many shooters. I am not one of them. I had ignition problems with it in my Optima, and there were countless "things to do" to make the powder work better. Well we finally did get it straightened out. But while I was "learning the quirks" of the powder, I sure longed for the old days of black powder and a #11 cap. I have personally decided that the powder is not for me. I get just as much power or more with Triple Seven. And yes I have to swab between shots with 777. Big Deal. It will go off with a #11 cap. And it cleans up very easy for me. So to each their own. But it the powder gives you fits, you might want to try another powder.

 

[Brayhaven]

I was not thrilled with the FPJ when using BH209. The small flash channel filled quickly with carbon and they leak. IMO bare primer is far superior when using BH209.

Check yours for primer crush using a Win209. They are the longest. Measure a new primer and insert it in the bolt. Close the action and remove the unfired primer. Measure it again. If you got a .003-.005 crush on the primer you should be good to go.

CCI209Ms are much shorter so they may need a shim in the primer pocket to crush.

Dont swab between shots with BH209. There is no need the vast majority of the time. Its a nitro based powder with some organic compounds added. Heavier bullets might yield better results. BH209 does seem to be more efficient with a 300gr. Im not sure if just moving upto a 250gr would be much of a difference over a 225gr. The barrel might simply prefer a heavier bullet.

Thanks, I had to swab between shots as it was extremely dirty (incomplete burning??). The primers have some "crush" in the new lehigh setup, but never needed any with the FPJ and it has the same flash hole size. Shouldn't be that bad. If it's that finicky, it might present a reliability problem. The first shot is the one that counts and a powder that won't shoot reliably in a clean barrel is a big problem for me.

As a gunsmith & black powder nut for 40+ years I've done a lot of testing with powders. The introduction of this one for modern ML's was pretty promising.. if it works . T7 was the best substitute I've found, and it performed up there with the best sporting grade BP (Swiss) in consistency and accuracy. I won the state pistol match with it a couple years just to prove to some of the BP hardliners it was a good powder. Sure hope I can get the bugs out of the setup I have using BH209 as I like the lower corrosion and not using low power primers.
Anyone here using lighter bullets with BH? (200-225gr)?
I appreciate the input.

Greg

 

[GM54-120]

Primers wont crush in a FPJ. They are not designed that way. The FPJ gets sandwiched between the plug and bolt. My Lehigh bare primer plugs have a 5/32 flash channel. My old pre Lehigh FPJ plugs had a 1/8" flash channel. I dont have a new FPJ plug to check.

After over 12 bottles of BH209 and bare primer plugs i have not had a single hangfire or fail to fire. Ive shot bullets from 155gr to 400gr. Ive shot conicals i could load with 2 finger pressure and start with my thumb including Powerbelts.

All of these ive shot with a plain ole Win209 in true Lehigh plugs with removable vent liners. Ive also never once had to swab between shots with BH209. A BH209 fouled bore actually loaded easier than a spotless bore.

For hunting or when first shot matters i simply foul the bore with a couple 209 primers and run a dry patch once. Been doing it for years without a miss.

As far as competitive accuracy, you might like to know BH209 has taken top honors at the Inline Match at Friendship many times. I believe some of the scores even set new records. Swiss is the only other powder that begins to compete in this match with the exception of pellets in the Ultimate Firearms custom builds. They were doing ok but not so much lately.

 

[GoexBlackhorn]

Bray

Your muzzy may just prefer the heavier bullets and so may BH 209. Try the 240-300gr bullets and BH209's usual sweet-spot is at 110 grains volume.
Like poster Cayuga, I have found BH209 to be picky & finicky and will hunt this season with Goex FFF. It always go bang and not fussy about primer strength, powder volume or bullet size.

I was a 777 user for many years. Got tired of frozen breechplugs/nipples and 777 crud rings. One day I found my percussion ML bolster drum frozen-shut. So I decided to feed my lawn the remaining 70% of the 777 jug I still had. Never will I use it again!

 

[Grouse]

Knight breech plugs and Lehigh plugs are different. Knight breech plugs are made by Lehigh, but Lehigh used to make there own plugs. Im assuming your using a Knight plug made by Lehigh??

 

[GM54-120]

Knight breech plugs and Lehigh plugs are different. Knight breech plugs are made by Lehigh, but Lehigh used to make there own plugs. Im assuming your using a Knight plug made by Lehigh??

Funny thing. A guy on another board says he has a very early Mountaineer or Ulite bare primer. He claims the flash channel is 1/8" in the original plug but his new one is 5/32". That would be the first time ive heard of that.

I was under the impression that only the SS used and brazed in vent were the differences.

 

[bestill]

A sealed bare primer ignition with a little crush on 209 primer and a clean breech plug. Dry barrel and breech plug and blackhorn powder will go off every Time.
If i was trying to shoot a 225 grain bullet i would use 120 gr volume charge. You want a very snug fitting sabot.

I personally would choose a 290-300 gr bullet with100 gr volume blackhorn and again snug sabot.
I personally think around30-40 lbs loading pressure is best.

 

[Grouse]

Knight breech plugs and Lehigh plugs are different. Knight breech plugs are made by Lehigh, but Lehigh used to make there own plugs. Im assuming your using a Knight plug made by Lehigh??

Funny thing. A guy on another board says he has a very early Mountaineer or Ulite bare primer. He claims the flash channel is 1/8" in the original plug but his new one is 5/32". That would be the first time ive heard of that.

I was under the impression that only the SS used and brazed in vent were the differences.

All Lehigh plugs were made with 17/4 and 5/32 flame channel. Knight plugs made by Lehigh could of changed the flame channel but im unaware of that cause i dont use Knight plugs.

 

[WV Hunter]

My guess is it shoots fine with the new BP using what you currently are.
I use W209's w 100gr BH209 and a 200gr shockwave in one of my .45's... no ignition issues ever. You don't have to have a heavy charge or mag primer if the headspace is right. JMO based on what I've done. Good luck, post up how she does

 

[GM54-120]

Just to clear thing up a bit for the OP.

The tiny "touch hole" on the bore side we call a flash hole. The hole on the primer side is the flash channel. This flash channel on a Lehigh bare primer plug should always be cleaned with a 5/32 drill bit. My old pre Lehigh FPJ plug with no brazed in vent took a 1/8" bit.

Your FPJ plug may simply be full of carbon. Mine worked with BH209 for a few shots and then i had delays in ignition. The bare primer plugs have been flawless as long as the primer had a .003 crush or slightly more. It is possible BH209 will not burn as completely with a lighter bullet in a 50cal unless the load is pretty stiff and the sabot very snug.

I shoot mostly 45s and a 54cal. My only 50cal has a totally different plug design and slower twist but it does like a 225gr bullet. That rifle is also perfectly headspaced and performs flawlessly with BH209.

Primers should be this clean if everything is set right. These are from my old Extreme and a true pre Knight Lehigh plug.

 

[WV Hunter]

Your FPJ plug may simply be full of carbon. Mine worked with BH209 for a few shots and then i had delays in ignition. The bare primer plugs have been flawless as long as the primer had a .003 crush or slightly more. It is possible BH209 will not burn as completely with a lighter bullet in a 50cal unless the load is pretty stiff and the sabot very snug.

The first disc rifle I got several years back came with a Lehigh plug. It was used, in great condition. I had read all along that the flash channel was 5/32"... mine was much smaller, or so I thought. The plug wasn't cleaned all the way out...
That carbon build up is SUPER HARD and I had to use several size bits going up to 5/32" to get it clean, and honestly I thought there ain't no way its 5/32" while doing it. Eventually it all came out. My guess is that is the culprit of MANY hangfires or no fires when using BH209.

 

[long shot]

win 209 or any primer put in red plastic jacket can be made to seal. Same as any breech plug all in head space

 

[GM54-120]

win 209 or any primer put in red plastic jacket can be made to seal. Same as any breech plug all in head space

It will never seal like a bare primer plug with proper headspace. Not a chance you can ever get it tight enough to stay as clean as my breach.

 

[sabotloader]

win 209 or any primer put in red plastic jacket can be made to seal. Same as any breech plug all in head space

It will never seal like a bare primer plug with proper headspace. Not a chance you can ever get it tight enough to stay as clean as my breach.

Second your thought there... the FPJ plastic will always expand with pressure at the point it slips over the FPJ nipple...

 

[long shot]

just saying , it has been done
.I have one.

 

[Brayhaven]

My guess is it shoots fine with the new BP using what you currently are.
I use W209's w 100gr BH209 and a 200gr shockwave in one of my .45's... no ignition issues ever. You don't have to have a heavy charge or mag primer if the headspace is right. JMO based on what I've done. Good luck, post up how she does

Thanks. I'll try it. Getting @ .0015 crush with the CCI 209M & .003 with the Win 209's as the lehigh came, (with no shimming). Sure hope it works as well as yours does. I hate to hunt with one I don't trust. Shot a lot of deer with patched RB's in a flintlock, but that was when I could see better in the early AM & late day.

Thanks for all the good input. Good bunch of shooters here on MML

Greg