BH209 and light <200 gr bullets?

[GM54-120]

MMP black. It was snug, not overly tight. Just a good 2 hand push down the barrel.

MMP Short black is a super tight sabot for many rifles.....BUT......when you have a bullet with a short bearing surface its much easier to load than the OD would suggest. Ive used those and the Harvester short black with a 225gr Barnes. Huge difference in loading force needed but i could still load them in my Douglas barrel....Funny thing too....The Harvester shot a little better with that load even though it loaded much easier. It was also about 40-50fps faster with the Harvester.

 

[Brayhaven]

As mentioned, BH likes to have good loading pressure. It could very well be that your sabot and a 200 grain, .40 cal bullet simply doesn’t offer enough weight (pressure)(barrel resistance) for that particular gun to shoot the charge of bh you’re loading.

That’s what I’m thinking. It works sometimes. I was wondering if a tight fitting wad over the powder would create the needed pressure. the price has become outrageous for it too. I would just like to shoot up what I have. Powder shouldn’t be that temperamental. Especially at 140 bucks a pound.

 

[Brayhaven]

I just scratch my head when i see posts like this about a Knight with the Lehigh plug. Ive had 1....yes 1 FTF with Knights and that was with a FPJ plug i forgot to clean. Thats well over 10 bottles of BH209 worth of shots and no less than 5 different rifles.

Every time we figure it out its been user error such as swabbing and solvent gets in the plug. I meen how is it i can shoot a 350gr conical with wad using just a Win209 and never had a fail to fire and someone doing everything "right" has tons of issues?

Ive shot gobs of 40cal 180s and 200s but virtually all in 45cal rifles. Not a single hiccup. Dropping down to a 45cal ML is simply a better platform for shooting lighter bullets. No fast twist needed either. The 1-30s shoot them fine.

I think you answered your head scratch with the heavier bullets requirement in 50 cal guns.
its not user error. I’ve cleaned them and use alcohol or hoppes to swab when I need to. I’ve been a gunsmith for 45 years and competitive shooter longer than that. I shoot 2 ML matches a month with traditional percussion and flint, with never a problem in far more finicky setups than the Lehigh/209 system. I always make sure the gun is completely dry and I can see through the flash hole before loading a hunting load. sometimes it works. @90% of the time, but apparently it isnt reliable with light bullets (50 bore).
this powder is much more difficult to ignite than any smokeless powder I’ve ever seen.
I was hoping someone on here had figured a way to make it work with light bullets. Guess it’s back to what works.
thanks for your input.

 

[GM54-120]

I think you answered your head scratch with the heavier bullets requirement in 50 cal guns.

Whatever you do, dont tell that to my NULA 50cal. Its been flawless igniting whatever i shove down it including BH209 and a 225gr.

 

[.45er]

Pardon me if this has been discussed. I shoot lighter bullets in my knight disc as they’re more comfortable. Barnes 200 XPB. Has the correct breech plug etc for bh209, but I was getting inconsistent ignition. Occasional bloopers. I switched to 777 or Swiss BP 3F and of course, those problems went away. But I don’t like the fouling. I’m wondering if it’s the barrel seal of the lighter bullet or lack of back pressure with the BH. Or is it simply that it doesn’t like light bullets? If I seated a 32 ga .520“ wad tightly over the powder, would that work? Will that negatively affect the sealing of the sabot? Or am I just stuck with easier to ignite propellants?
thanks for any experience in this regard.
nothing more disappointing than drawing down on a deer or pig and having your gun go “pfffft” instead of bang.

Lots of good advice given here. May not apply to your firearm but I've also seen poor ignition due to a dirty firing pin.

 

[GM54-120]

Lots of good advice given here. May not apply to your firearm but I've also seen poor ignition due to a dirty firing pin.

Ive seen literally a hundred posters swear the plug is clean until you get specific about using the correct size drill bit. Yes its clean....Ok but did you clean it with a drill bit.......No......Go clean it with a drill bit and see how much comes out.

Seen that so many times its not funny and they are loaded up with solvent wet carbon in the plug. Same goes for many guys that insist on swabbing each shot with BH209.

 

[Brayhaven]

Ive seen literally a hundred posters swear the plug is clean until you get specific about using the correct size drill bit. Yes its clean....Ok but did you clean it with a drill bit.......No......Go clean it with a drill bit and see how much comes out.

Seen that so many times its not funny and they are loaded up with solvent wet carbon in the plug. Same goes for many guys that insist on swabbing each shot with BH209.

Yes, I have always cleaned it with a drill bit, and it’s always clean and dry, before I start shooting. this Rifle just doesn’t like BH209 with light bullets. And neither do I.
Apparently there are quite a few others having similar results. hunting with a rifle that may or may not shoot, isn’t much fun.
and paying 140$ a pound for a powder that works sometimes, just because it’s easy to clean up after, isn’t much fun either.
I haven’t seen any improvement in velocity or accuracy with it over other alternatives I’ve used.
I’m through with this stuff.
thanks for the replies. If anyone‘s in the area N FL, I’ll make you a deal on my remaining supply. No guarantees.

 

[Brayhaven]

Whatever you do, dont tell that to my NULA 50cal. Its been flawless igniting whatever i shove down it including BH209 and a 225gr.

I try not to talk to guns. People look at you funny.

 

[GM54-120]

This bullet blew apart at 45LC carbine speeds?
https://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/threads/hornady-245-grain-interlock.41645/
Thats pretty interesting considering this video of a 2100fps-ish impact into wet phone books and deer bone.

 

[MrTom]

This bullet blew apart at 45LC carbine speeds?
https://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/threads/hornady-245-grain-interlock.41645/
Thats pretty interesting considering this video of a 2100fps-ish impact into wet phone books and deer bone.

I shoot .40 cal, 200 grain XTPs in a .45 cal Kodiak using BH209 and have zero issues with it. I tried the .40 cal bullets in sabots in my v2 Accura thinking my velocity might jump up but with BH 209, ww209 primers, and a converted plug the 90 (v) grain charge balked at ignition. It fired, but not like it should have. I reloaded with my usual 50 cal, .45 XPB load and it fired exactly like it was supposed to. The only thing I could come up with was that the light bullet and off-sized sabot wasn’t able to either seal well or offer adequate resistance at ignition. BH really likes a solid tamp but if what’s on top doesn’t have the physical bulk to offer sufficient resistance I think problems can arise. It doesn’t imply that the powder is at fault but rather one of the little glitches that comes with BH. All powders in the black powder sub realm come with something that annoys someone especially when one considers that different guns and components other than the powder can have such a broad influence on how things work.

 

[Brayhaven]

I shoot .40 cal, 200 grain XTPs in a .45 cal Kodiak using BH209 and have zero issues with it. I tried the .40 cal bullets in sabots in my v2 Accura thinking my velocity might jump up but with BH 209, ww209 primers, and a converted plug the 90 (v) grain charge balked at ignition. It fired, but not like it should have. I reloaded with my usual 50 cal, .45 XPB load and it fired exactly like it was supposed to. The only thing I could come up with was that the light bullet and off-sized sabot wasn’t able to either seal well or offer adequate resistance at ignition. BH really likes a solid tamp but if what’s on top doesn’t have the physical bulk to offer sufficient resistance I think problems can arise. It doesn’t imply that the powder is at fault but rather one of the little glitches that comes with BH. All powders in the black powder sub realm come with something that annoys someone especially when one considers that different guns and components other than the powder can have such a broad influence on how things work.

That’s very true. It’s a very temperamental
propellant, that costs several times what others cost. The ease of cleaning is nice, but not at the expense of reliability. I think you’re spot on that it requires resistance of a heavy bullet, hard tamp and tight fitting sabot to work well. I guess those are things that annoy me. I think it’s overpriced and overrated, and certainly not very versatile. I’ve played around with it for 7 years now, with mixed results and finally just decided those little annoying things about other propellants are pretty minor compared to BH. Probably the least annoying is good old Swiss BP.

 

[MrTom]

Some may think it’s over-priced but for me, here in Minnesota, it’s the cats meow now that I have those little kinks worked out. I know I have mentioned this before, I hunt with BH but I shoot T7 fffg at the range.

For what BH offers me in the field, the cost is negligible. Call it the price of peace of mind. I don’t mind paying for that.

 

[Brayhaven]

Some may think it’s over-priced but for me, here in Minnesota, it’s the cats meow now that I have those little kinks worked out. I know I have mentioned this before, I hunt with BH but I shoot T7 fffg at the range.

For what BH offers me in the field, the cost is negligible. Call it the price of peace of mind. I don’t mind paying for that.

Yep, you use what you’re comfortable with. I couldn’t see any advantage in hunting using it over T7 or BP. and BH isn’t expensive if you only shoot it occasionally. But peace of mind is exactly why I’ll never hunt with it again. I shot some deer and hogs with it, but had two bloopers on deer with it . Very frustrating.
I shot 40 rounds in a match this morning, traditional percussion, using Swiss 3F & #11 caps. Never a misfire, hang fire or FTF. Never a swab between shots. In fact I haven’t had a misfire in 5 years with traditional percussion. And never in a flinter when the priming charge ignited. I shoot 2 matches a month and burn at least a pound of powder per month.
I guess that the definition of “peace of mind”.
I started using inlines for hunting some years back as the eyes were getting bad at dawn & dusk, as I approached 70. Refused to put a scope on a flintlock . I enjoy shooting them now, along with my cartridge guns.

 

[MrTom]

I’ll also mention that if I want to shoot .40 bullets I’ll use one of my .45s. I gave up on .40s in a .50 long ago. .40’s in a .45 just shine. .40’s in a .50…. pretty boring.

 

[Brayhaven]

I’ll also mention that if I want to shoot .40 bullets I’ll use one of my .45s. I gave up on .40s in a .50 long ago. .40’s in a .45 just shine. .40’s in a .50…. pretty boring.

I’d probably do the same, though I don’t have a 45 inline. Plenty of 40 & 45 traditional.
curious though. When you say “ boring”, what specifically is boring about using 40 bullets in a 50? Not as fun as a 45?
Was thinking of trying them (155 gr Xpb) in my wife’s CVA as she’s recoil sensitive. She also mainly hunts pigs which don’t take much to kill. I use 200-225 grain 44&45 bullets in my knight DE. But haven’t tried 40s in it.

 

[MrTom]

Boring…. I wasn’t able to pull any decent accuracy using the .40 grain bullets. My .50’s get under an inch with almost every .45 bullet I send down range. .40’s were tough to see 2” at 100.

My .45 Kodiak using 200 grain .40 bullets gets 100 yard groups closing in on 1/2” to 3/4” at 100. I’ve shot .40 bullets down to 155 grains with amazing groups. I just think that .40 cal bullets have their place and that .45 cal is about max for bore size with them. Others may enjoy different results and that’s fine.