Blackhorn 209 by weight is not measuring up to volume line

[ronlaughlin]

I think you are in good shape as to your original question. That said, muzzleloading can be a lot of work. Weighing powder is more work. If you have time and enjoy it, go for it. It’s more accurate.

But I tell every newbie, there is no reason to weigh charges when you first start out. It makes very little difference in groups out to 100 yrds. In over 30 yrs of hunting with a muzzy, I have only shot with open sights, and for me that means 100-120 yrds max. I get 2-3” groups at 100 yrds with volume only (and open sights). When and if I ever put a scope on a muzzy (if I get picked for Utah and can use a 1x scope) I will prob weigh and extend my range. But there is no need to improve my hunting accuracy presently. It’s more than adequate.

Remember a 3” group is only 1.5” away from the bullseye. On a hunt, I can live with that.

txhunter58​

Yes, this shooter mostly agrees with what you wrote here. However, in spite of that, finds it very easy, and mostly easier to weigh every shot. Weighing loads is easy for me, and because of the accuracy of the measurements, is comforting.

Using a 1X scope works for me because of not being able to focus on the front sight when using iron sights, but the crosshair covers the target, and makes it very difficult to aim. Aiming with a 1X scope out beyond 75 yards is not easy, and requires lots, and lots of practice, because the crosshair covers the target. Our boy will not use a 1X scope because it so frustrating. for him. If one can focus on the front sight, a 6 o-clock hold allows one to aim out away without covering the target. The boy hates 1X scopes.

 

[HV-Muzzleloaders]

When Blackhorn 209 first came on the market the Material Safety Data Sheet was different from what it says today. The older version contained the word "ester". Why was it different than the newer version? Perhaps the company did not want shooters to know the product is made up of 83% smokeless powder. Why would they do this? Even after Savage Arms produced their Model 10ML muzzleloader, many shooters are still repeating the false claim that any amount of smokeless powder will burst the barrel of a muzzleloader. Some people appear to not know shotgun shells, and pistol cartridges, and riffle cartridges are loaded with smokeless powder and many thousands of people routinely reload shotgun shells, and pistol cartridges, and rifle cartridges. Are all of these reloaded shells and cartridges "dangerous", because they are loaded with smokeless powder instead of Black Powder? They are not "dangerous" if they are reloaded with the correct weight of a smokeless powder that has the proper burn rate for that application. Savage Arms used this same methodology in their Savage 10ML muzzleloader over 20 years ago, but myths do not die easily. Some people still believe the earth is flat, and you cannot convince them otherwise no matter how much evidence you show them.

Older version of the MSDS:
https://montanaxtreme.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/Blackhorn-209-SDS.pdf

The newer version of the Material Safety Data Sheet below reveals BH209 is 83% smokeless powder (nitrocellulose), which means it is more sensitive to changes in pressure. The burn characteristics of smokeless powder are not the same as Black Powder. This is one of the reasons BH209 loads are more accurate if they are weighed on a scale.

https://hodgdonpowderco.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/2022-blackhorn-209-sds.pdf

.

 

[txhunter58]

txhunter58​

Yes, this shooter mostly agrees with what you wrote here. However, in spite of that, finds it very easy, and mostly easier to weigh every shot. Weighing loads is easy for me, and because of the accuracy of the measurements, is comforting.

Using a 1X scope works for me because of not being able to focus on the front sight when using iron sights, but the crosshair covers the target, and makes it very difficult to aim. Aiming with a 1X scope out beyond 75 yards is not easy, and requires lots, and lots of practice, because the crosshair covers the target. Our boy will not use a 1X scope because it so frustrating. for him. If one can focus on the front sight, a 6 o-clock hold allows one to aim out away without covering the target. The boy hates 1X scopes.

All good points. For this boy, who has a 1 power 1 MOA red dot scope instead of crosshairs, I think I could get used to that. Because, like you, his eyes don’t see the front sight on open sights well any more. In fact, he has to wear 1x reading glasses to be able to see only one front sight (instead of two). Which makes the deer/ elk blurry!

So this boy will at least try my scope (currently on an AR) and hope to extend my range from 120 to a Max of 200 yards. After all, my dot will only be 2” at 200 yards. And the scope I have is very close to my eyes. Might even still use the 6 o'clock hold with the dot that I currently use with open sights.

 

[txhunter58]

The best reason I have heard to weigh a Blackhorn powder is you don’t waste any! That stuff is the real
Black Gold!

 

[txhunter58]

“The burn characteristics of smokeless powder are not the same as Black Powder. This is one of the reasons BH209 loads are more accurate if they are weighed on a scale”

Again, you speak truth. But the difference in group size out to 100 yards when hunting is insignificant IMO. Those 2-3” groups I am getting are with volume measured BH 209. If/ when I ever extend my range to 200 yards or beyond, I will certainly weigh my charges.

 

[ronlaughlin]

hope to extend my range from 120 to a Max of 200 yards.

Wow, that would be great. Much further than i dare shoot with a 1X scope.

 

[txhunter58]

Wow, that would be great. Much further than i dare shoot with a 1X scope.

I have no idea if it will work or not, but with a 2” dot at 200, a rangefinder, and a known holdover for distances up to 200 yrds, it would seem possible. But I won’t know until I try it. And until I need to try it, I don’t want to mess with my existing open sights that are exactly where I want them!

This year hopefully Colorado and NM. Both of which don’t allow any type of scope. Then, hopefully in the next 5 years: Utah. Then will experiment

Need Marley over on Monstermulies to give me shooting lessons. He shot an elk in CO at about 270 yrds with open sights! But I doubt my vision was ever that good!

 

[anonymouscowherd]

txhunter58​

Yes, this shooter mostly agrees with what you wrote here. However, in spite of that, finds it very easy, and mostly easier to weigh every shot. Weighing loads is easy for me, and because of the accuracy of the measurements, is comforting.

Using a 1X scope works for me because of not being able to focus on the front sight when using iron sights, but the crosshair covers the target, and makes it very difficult to aim. Aiming with a 1X scope out beyond 75 yards is not easy, and requires lots, and lots of practice, because the crosshair covers the target. Our boy will not use a 1X scope because it so frustrating. for him. If one can focus on the front sight, a 6 o-clock hold allows one to aim out away without covering the target. The boy hates 1X scopes.

Trick I use for golf balls at extended range with a 22 and high magnification scope (crosshairs cover target) is to fiddle the knobs so it is a bit low and right of POI. Vertical cross hair on right side of ball, horizontal at bottom of ball == dead center hit

 

[Frank]

This is a common question among newer shooters. The answer is that those tubes are not accurately marked for volume. I’d go so far as to say the marks are for looks only.

Definitely do as @michiganmuzzy says, get a good brass measure and measure out 10 charges, weigh each and average the weights. If you’re set on weighing. I believe for most guys it is sufficient to volume measure. (You’ll likely find that a max volume charge of 120 gr isn’t 84 gr weighed.) The recent lots of BH209 are heavier.

I did the same only I measured 120 by volume in my brass measure averaged 98.2 grains. I called Hogdon they told me not to weigh it just go by volume, that is how they test it at the lab. I explained that their chart says 120 = 84 weight. He told me I must have an old chart. So I asked if they changed the recipe, He said no, just measure volume it is more accurate. I don't agree. I have acha accura lrx. I called BPI. They said weigh it 84grains max, don't exceed. So which manufacturer do you believe? The powder man. Or the firearms man.?

 

[HV-Muzzleloaders]

I did the same only I measured 120 by volume in my brass measure averaged 98.2 grains. I called Hogdon they told me not to weigh it just go by volume, that is how they test it at the lab. I explained that their chart says 120 = 84 weight. He told me I must have an old chart. So I asked if they changed the recipe, He said no, just measure volume it is more accurate. I don't agree. I have acha accura lrx. I called BPI. They said weigh it 84grains max, don't exceed. So which manufacturer do you believe? The powder man. Or the firearms man.?

The contact person at Hodgdon may be some computer geek that does not have any practical experience in shooting a muzzleloader. Anyone doing benchrest shooting will probably tell you they weigh their powder. A friend of mine just paid close to a thousand dollars for a lab-grade scale that weighs powder within 0,02 grains.

 

[Frank]

The contact person at Hodgdon may be some computer geek that does not have any practical experience in shooting a muzzleloader. Anyone doing benchrest shooting will probably tell you they weigh their powder. A friend of mine just paid close to a thousand dollars for a lab-grade scale that weighs powder within 0,02 grains.

The person I talked to said he is the guy at the test lab that does the test firing. We had a lengthy conversation about this. I reload a fire about 500 to a 1000 rounds of various center fire cartridges every year, so I had a strong disagreement with this gentleman, that told me to measure buy volume it is more accurate. I'm weighing my loads but still don't know what max truly is!

 

[HV-Muzzleloaders]

The person I talked to said he is the guy at the test lab that does the test firing. We had a lengthy conversation about this. I reload a fire about 500 to a 1000 rounds of various center fire cartridges every year, so I had a strong disagreement with this gentleman, that told me to measure buy volume it is more accurate. I'm weighing my loads but still don't know what max truly is!

I worry about the data coming from the "test lab" being correct, if the guy does not know any better. You and I both know he is wrong.

The following video shows how I normally test pressures now.

 

[earlwb]

The problem is that the weight of BH 209 changes from lot to lot. Different lots do not weigh the same. So if you are measuring by weight then you have to account for that. But for the regular user that gets complicated but the volume would be the same from lot to lot though.

On the other hand those plastic tubes do not have accurate volume markings. We really do not know what the manufacturer used to make the marks with. Did they use black powder, Pyrodex, bh309, 777, sawdust, distilled water, oil or something else.

So far using a good brass volume measuring tool is the best choice at present. At least it used black powder.
Then once you determine your volume you can pour it into a plastic tube and see what the marks on the tube align with.

 

[HV-Muzzleloaders]

The problem is that the weight of BH 209 changes from lot to lot. Different lots do not weigh the same. So if you are measuring by weight then you have to account for that. But for the regular user that gets complicated but the volume would be the same from lot to lot though.

On the other hand those plastic tubes do not have accurate volume markings. We really do not know what the manufacturer used to make the marks with. Did they use black powder, Pyrodex, bh309, 777, sawdust, distilled water, oil or something else.

So far using a good brass volume measuring tool is the best choice at present. At least it used black powder.
Then once you determine your volume you can pour it into a plastic tube and see what the marks on the tube align with.

Unless the formulation is changed, the weight of the product does not change from lot to lot.

80 grains by weight will contain the same amount of propellant, no matter what the lot number. However, the volume can change based on slight variations in the shape and size of the granules.

A pound of rocks and a pound of Styrofoam weigh the same. However, the volume will not be the same.



https://hodgdonpowderco.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/2022-blackhorn-209-sds.pdf

 

[ElDiablo]

It’s been well established that the weight of a given volume charge does change by lot with Bh209. And that the velocity produced is consistent lot to lot with volume charges.

 

[Frank]

It’s been well established that the weight of a given volume charge does change by lot with Bh209. And that the velocity produced is consistent lot to lot with volume charges.

So in theory120 grains by volume of bh209 (max for my rifle) that weighs 98.2 grains would be safe to load and shoot. ??

 

[ElDiablo]

Yes

 

[LBAhunter]

So in theory120 grains by volume of bh209 (max for my rifle) that weighs 98.2 grains would be safe to load and shoot. ??

Just asking....
Is that the most accurate load in your rifle or do you just want to shoot the max load?

 

[Charger1]

Here we go again, the great debate!

 

[MrTom]

Absolutely.

Think of it this way Frank. the 120 grains by volume is based on velocity and pressure at the makers labs for each lot of powder where they can measure reliability identical charges by volume. Shooters don't have the equipment or the environment to repeat what the labs do with consistent reliability, but the deviations between shooter's charges is not enough to cause issues at normal hunting distances. But because different lots of the same powder are made with the same components, but from different sources at the maker's level, the components themselves can vary in weight. The volume is somewhat static at 120 grains, but the finished weights can vary. Now because there is no true consistency with volume measure at the shooter level, the only way to obtain absolute, or near absolute, consistency is to weigh the volume charges. The best way to obtain an exact weight is by averaging out ten volume charges' weights. Using the average of those ten weights gives you a super reliable charge weight, should you want to shoot longer range targets or animals, that the simpler volume measure gives you. Remember, those ten volume charges are all going to weigh different even though the eye on a line says they are the same. While the average weight of those ten charges might actually be two or three grains over or under the volumes measured, the weighed average is exact, no swishy washy deviations. By using an exact amount repeatedly, you eliminate those powder deviations from any problems that may arise.

Most all of my hunting shots are taken well under 100 yards, but I still demand repeatable consistency in my shoot, whether at the bench or in the woods, so I weigh my powder charges. When I buy bullets, like Barnes, that come in lots of twenty, I'll buy four or five boxes at a time of the same bullet and weigh them all, setting any that are too light or too heavy aside in their own piles. They go to the range for maintenance shooting. Those that fit the weight they're sold as are used for hunting. This gives me repeatable consistency at the bullet end. See where I am going here? Everyone settles on their own needs: some simply say good enough at the powder measure. Others' like myself, want more control and consistency. We don't see it as more work. We see it as a regular part of a routine we use to make certain they we have done everything we can to be as consistent as we can because we understand how the lack of consistence can affect our shooting. Its all up to you and what you want out of your shooting. No right or wrong, all personal.