Cost of Powder - Amounts by VOLUME

[52Bore]

Did some calculations/chart on cost of powder for those who buy at different cost.
Based on weight of powder.
This information is strictly for Cost Per Shot analysis and not to be misunderstood for recommended load by volume or weight measurements. Please refer to the powder manufacturer's load recommendations.

 

[BuckDoeHunter]

Re: Cost of Powder

Just curious, how many grains by volume do you get with 100 grains by weight with black powder?

 

[Anonymous]

Re: Cost of Powder

Weighted measurements are not useful to me. I paid $25 for Goex and I saw Blackhorn for $39 and Pyrodex for $22. I think 777 was $26.

 

[WV Hunter]

Re: Cost of Powder

BH209 cost per pound for me would be about $72 ($45/10oz jug) :d'oh!:

Or am I thinking wrong?

 

[52Bore]

Re: Cost of Powder

BuckDoeHunter:
There is no std for Volume for BP that I know of - probably the same for any powder. Just like BH209, 70gr weighed = 100gr Vol - but what is the volume based from?Yes, there are volumetric measures that are made, but where /when it started I don't think there is any known reference. IMO, I think somewhere back in the early BP days they chose some BP granular size to base there 'volume' from which I believe, was weighed to equal the Volume amount. Probably kinda like how a 'foot' or 'inch' were created..
One thing about BP is batch-to-batch, maker-to-maker, etc.. the density is a little different given the same granulation. Ex: use your measure on a set vol and weigh different makers 2F - it will vary.
Granulation size today is known as the more surface area per individual grain of powder the larger the granulation # & vise versa. I have no idea what size Cutis&Harvey No.6 granular size might be from the 1800's?
Even modern shotgun shells still reference Dram equivalent, this is BP equivalent (1 Dram = est. 27grains of BP). Again this Dram is an unknown like Volume.

This unknown volume variance is why I weigh powder, I know no other way to control the consistency of each powder charge.
I used a Belding & Mull powder measure that is really consistent (usually throws within a tenth or two of a grain - I've tested many times) for Vol that I use when playing to get a rifle or new bullet started.

I also weigh my bullets after casting but before patching or lubing. Same reason - consistency.
Sorry, this reply got a little long...

 

[52Bore]

Re: Cost of Powder

Probably need to clarify the charts and how I calculated. This started on another post on this site.
Cost/lb is what you buy at the store. I did the compensation for 10oz cans for BH209 in my chart.

I'll go thru the first example on each chart (I certainly could have made a mistake).

BLACK: $25, 50gr
7000gr/lb divided by 50gr per shot = 140 shots per lb of powder.
$25 divided by 140 shots = 17.8 cents per shot (my chart rounded up to 18 cents)

BH209: $42, 50gr
Since BH209 only has 10oz in a can and a pound is 16oz.; 10/16 = 0.625 lbs
7000gr/lb X 0.625 = 4375gr/lb (this is 10oz of BH209 powder in grains)
4375gr/lb divided by 50gr per shot = 87.5 shots per can of BH powder
$42 divided by 87.5 shots = 48 cents per shot

Find the price you buy at the store for a can of powder (couldn't give every possible example), locate your powder charge (weight) and you'll have the cost of each shot.

 

[Lee 9]

Re: Cost of Powder

If you want the best you always have to pay for it one way or another. I started shooting muzzleloaders 67 years ago with the pistols my granddad gave me that his father used in the civil war we made our own black powder. since then I have use every thing I could get my hands on as it came on the market. There is no doubt in my mind that at this time BH is the best by far and worth the cost. If you really want cheap then make your own black if you process your own potassium nitrate and charcoal and use garden sulfur you can do it almost with out cost except for a couple of weeks of hard work of course you can make enough to last a long time the problem is getting every thing just right so it is fairly potent. A word of warning study up on the procedures first and think about all the powder plants that have blown up over the years when something was not just right.

 

[Busta]

Re: Cost of Powder

One BIG thing you are overlooking is Blackhorn 209 is more energetic by volume and weight over Black Powder.

Since Black Powder is the standard to which all BP Substitutes are measured, and where the original volume measure was derived from and calibrated. We will use 100 grains WEIGHT = 100 grains VOLUME of Black Powder. I realize that there are several manufacturers of Black Powder, and weight will vary slightly from this standard.

Since Blackhorn 209 is a less dense powder, 100 grains by volume, weighs 70 grains by weight. This gives us a 0.7 multiplier when converting VOLUMETRIC loads to WEIGHT. Now add in the fact that Blackhorn 209 is also 15% more energetic than Black Powder by volume equivalents.

85 grains by volume Blackhorn 209 will give you equivalent velocities to 100 grains by weight/volume of Black Powder. More take 85 gr by VOLUME × 0.7 multiplier = 59.5 grains by WEIGHT.

So now it only takes 59.5 grains by WEIGHT of Blackhorn 209 to give you equivalent velocities to 100 grains by WEIGHT/VOLUME of Holy Black Powder.

Now knowing this, we can chart things by velocity equivalents, and a more apples to apples approach when charting your bang for the buck.

So when charting 50 grains of Black Powder by WEIGHT/VOLUME, it only takes 42.5 grains by VOLUME x 0.7 multiplier = 29.75 grains by WEIGHT of Blackhorn 209 to get you there, as far as equivalent velocity.

A lot of this has been hashed out over the years, starting bank in April 2008 when Blackhorn 209 was first released to the public. No one is denying it costs more up front to shoot Blackhorn 209, but once you figure in all the spit-patching between shots and dealing with the more corrosive Black Powder, takes more by weight to equal velocities, things start to clear up.

VOLUME to VOLUME, Blackhorn 209 needs to be reduced by 15% for equivalent velocities to Black Powder.

WEIGHT to WEIGHT, Blackhorn 209 needs to be reduced by an additional 0.7 multiplier after figuring out equivalent VOLUME for equivalent WEIGHTS to Black Powder.

So take 100 grains VOLUME/WEIGHT of BLack Powder = 85 grains by VOLUME Blackhorn 209 x 0.7 multiplier = 59.5 grains WEIGHT of Blackhorn 209.

So you chart indicating the cost of Blackhorn 209 as Compared to Black Powder is not an apples to apples conversion. If you want to make it close to the same, take 50 grains of Black Powder vs only 29.75 grains weight to calculate your VELOCITY bang for the buck.

Blackhorn 209 is not a direct conversion powder to Black Powder by either WEIGHT or VOLUME. Just like Triple Se7en loose powders are not as well. Triple Se7en is also 15 % more energetic by VOLUME than Black Powder, and is also a less dense powder. The multiplier to convert Triple Se7en from VOLUME to WEIGHT is roughly 0.777, depending on FFG or FFFG. So if 100 grains Black Powder by WEIGHT/VOLUME = 85 grains by VOLUME Triple Se7en FFG, then 85 gr VOLUME × 0.777 multiplier = 66.045 grains by WEIGHT of Triple Se7en for equivalent velocities to Black Powder.

This may be confusing to some, but by no means are any BP Substitutes a direct conversion to Black Powder by either VOLUME or WEIGHT. I don't want someone to think he can just weigh out charges of the powders thinking he has a safe equivalent to Black Powder, when he absolutely does NOT!

It also isn't costing him nearly as much per shot as your chart indicates, when it only takes roughly 59.5 % by WEIGHT of Blackhorn 209 to do the same thing as Black Powder.
EDIT: Sorry, this was originally typed up on the phone, and obvious spelling errors, hopefully corrected.

 

[Anonymous]

Re: Cost of Powder

So roughly 70 grains of Blachorn to equal 100 grains of Black in volume.
So the difference in jug cost/size is not really a big deal after all. For the bennies to Blackhorn include much less hydroscopy - much less corrosion. The many multiple shots factor does not affect me. Ist-2nd shot accuracy / closeness, mean more to me than spending 90 minutes at a range without swabbing.

 

[GM54-120]

Re: Cost of Powder

80gr of BH209 by volume produced almost 1450fps with a No-Excuses 460gr conical in my 45cal. Roughly 25.5" working bore

Thats a heck of a thumper load.

60gr by volume produced around 1250fps.

 

[Anonymous]

Re: Cost of Powder

80gr of BH209 by volume produced almost 1450fps with a No-Excuses 460gr conical in my 45cal. Roughly 25.5" working bore

Thats a heck of a thumper load.

60gr by volume produced around 1250fps.

Maybe that's right, being my 70 gr FFF Black with a 460 Excuse is somewhere around 1100, I do believe anyways.

 

[BuckDoeHunter]

Re: Cost of Powder

The BH209 chart should really stop at 84gr by weight. This is the max load posted by Western Powders. Many know that, some do not. I would hate for someone to make a mistake and get hurt.

 

[Squeeze]

Re: Cost of Powder

I think I have the conversion all figured out

should be easy enough to follow along....

 

[Busta]

Re: Cost of Powder

100 gr VOLUME/WEIGHT Black Powder = 85 gr VOLUME Blackhorn 209.

85 gr by VOLUME Blackhorn 209 = 59.5 gr by WEIGHT Blackhorn 209.

Blackhorn 209 in a VOLUME measure needs to be reduced by 15% to be equivalent to Black Powder by VELOCITY.


VOLUME to VOLUME velocity equivalents only.

100 grains VOLUME Black Powder = 85 grains VOLUME Blackhorn 209


CONVERTING Blackhorn 209 from VOLUME to WEIGHT, you use a 0.7 multiplier.

100 grains VOLUME Blackhorn 209 x 0.7 multiplier = 70 grains by WEIGHT

85 grains VOLUME Blackhorn 209 x 0.7 multiplier = 59.5 grains by WEIGHT.


WEIGHT to WEIGHT velocity equivalents only.

100 grains WEIGHT Black Powder x 0.595 multiplier = 59.5 grains WEIGHT Blackhorn 209.



So in a nutshell, Blackhorn 209 powder by WEIGHT needs to be reduced by a 0.595 multiplier to deliver equal VELOCITIES to Black Powder by WEIGHT.

100 grains WEIGHT/VOLUME Black Powder = 85 grains VOLUME Blackhorn 209 = 59.5 grains WEIGHT Blackhorn 209.



Ultimately.

100 gr WEIGHT Black Powder = 59.5 gr WEIGHT Blackhorn 209.


52 bores chart does not reflect this in any way, and is skewed at best when considering BULLET VELOCITY, or BANG for your BUCK. In other words cost per shot.

50 gr WEIGHT/VOLUME Black Powder = 42.5 gr VOLUME Blackhorn 209 = 29.75 gr WEIGHT Blackhorn 209

Ultimately.

50 gr WEIGHT Black Powder = 29.75 gr WEIGHT Blackhorn 209


So going back to the cost per shot, per jug of powder. VELOCITY to VELOCITY equivalent, APPLES to APPLES, as it should be.

1 pound Black Powder = 7000 grains WEIGHT divided by 50 grains WEIGHT = 140 shots per jug.

10 oz Blackhorn 209 = 4375 grains WEIGHT divided by 29.75 grains WEIGHT = 148.30 shots per jug.

SO, in all actuality, you get 8 more 50 grain EQUIVALENT shots per 10oz jug of Blackhorn 209 that you get from a POUND of Black Powder. How do you like them apples?

That is a long way from his 87.5 shots per jug reported earlier, and at $42 per jug??? I have been shooting Blackhorn 209 since April 2008, and have never even come close to paying that price per jug. Yes I have seen it retail priced for that in some places, but I don't buy it from those places. If you do a little research it can be bought for around $29.99 per 10oz jug, or a 5 pound jug for around $210 - $220.

 

[BuckDoeHunter]

Re: Cost of Powder

I think his $42 was for a pound, which isn't too bad of a price.

Good posts Busta.

If someone wants too shoot expensive powder, shoot pellets, them things are ridickerous...

 

[ronald horne]

Re: Cost of Powder

Good job, Busta. I'm with Squeeze on this one!

 

[long shot]

Re: Cost of Powder

One BIG thing you are overlooking is Blackhorn 209 is more energetic by volume and weight over Black Powder.

Since Black Powder is the standard to which all BP Substitutes are measured, and where the original volume measure was derived from and calibrated. We will use 100 grains WEIGHT = 100 grains VOLUME of Black Powder. I realize that there are several manufacturers of Black Powder, and weight will vary slightly from this standard.

Since Blackhorn 209 is a more dense powder, 100 grains by volume, weighs 70 grains by weight. This gives us a 0.7 multiplier when converting VOLUMETRIC loads to WEIGHT. Now add in the fact that Blackhorn 209 is also 15% more energetic than Black Powder by volume equivalents.

85 grains by volume Blackhorn 209 will give you equivalent velocities to 100 grains by weight/volume of Black Powder. More take 85 gr by VOLUME × 0.7 multiplier = 59.5 grains by WEIGHT.

So now it only takes 59.5 grains by WEIGHT of Blackhorn 209 to give you equivalent velocities to 100 grains by WEIGHT/VOLUME of Holy Black Powder.

Now knowing this, we can chart things by velocity equivalents, and a more apples to apples approach when charting your bang for the buck.

So when charting 50 grains of Black Powder by WEIGHT/VOLUME, it only takes 42.5 grains by VOLUME x 0.7 multiplier = 29.75 grains by WEIGHT of Blackhorn 209 to get you there, as far as equivalent velocity.

A lot of this has been hashed out over the years, starting bank in April 2008 when Blackhorn 209 was first released to the public. No one is denying it costs more up front to shoot Blackhorn 209, but once you figure in all the spit-patching between shots and dealing with the more corrosive Black Powder, takes more by weight to equal velocities, things start to clear up.

VOLUME to VOLUME, Blackhorn 209 needs to be reduced by 15% for equivalent velocities to Black Powder.

WEIGHT to WEIGHT, Blackhorn 209 needs to be reduced by an additional 0.7 multiplier after figuring out equivalent VOLUME for equivalent WEIGHTS to Black Powder.

So take 100 grains VOLUME/WEIGHT of BLack Powder = 85 grains by VOLUME Blackhorn 209 x 0.7 multiplier = 59.5 grains WEIGHT of Blackhorn 209.

So you chart indicating the cost of Blackhorn 209 as Compared to Black Powder is not an apples to apples conversion. If you want to make it close to the same, take 50 grains of Black Powder vs only 29.75 grains weight to calculate your VELOCITY bang for the buck.

Blackhorn 209 is not a direct conversion powder to Black Powder by either WEIGHT or VOLUME. Just like Triple Se7en loose powders are not as well. Triple Se7en is also 15 % more energetic by VOLUME than Black Powder, and is also a dense powder. The multiplier to convert Triple Se7en from VOLUME to WEIGHT is roughly 0.777, depending on FFG or FFFG. So if 100 grains Black Powder by WEIGHT/VOLUME = 85 grains by VOLUME Triple Se7en FFG, then 85 gr VOLUME × 0.777 multiplier = 66.045 grains by WEIGHT of Triple Se7en for equivalent velocities to Black Powder.

This may be confusing to some, but by no means are any BP Substitutes a direct conversion to Black Powder by either VOLUME or WEIGHT. I don't want someone to think he can just weigh out charges of the powders thinking he has a safe equivalent to Black Powder, when he absolutely does NOT!

It also isn't costing him nearly as much per shot as your chart indicates, when it only takes roughly 59.5 % by WEIGHT of Blackhorn 209 to do the same thing as Black Powder.
EDIT: Sorry, this was originally typed up on the phone, and obvious spelling errors, hopefully corrected.

If it takes more by volume of black horn to equal same as black, which 100 grn. volume = 100 grn by weight, black horn can't be more dense.

 

[Busta]

Re: Cost of Powder

One BIG thing you are overlooking is Blackhorn 209 is more energetic by volume and weight over Black Powder.

Since Black Powder is the standard to which all BP Substitutes are measured, and where the original volume measure was derived from and calibrated. We will use 100 grains WEIGHT = 100 grains VOLUME of Black Powder. I realize that there are several manufacturers of Black Powder, and weight will vary slightly from this standard.

Since Blackhorn 209 is a less dense powder, 100 grains by volume, weighs 70 grains by weight. This gives us a 0.7 multiplier when converting VOLUMETRIC loads to WEIGHT. Now add in the fact that Blackhorn 209 is also 15% more energetic than Black Powder by volume equivalents.

85 grains by volume Blackhorn 209 will give you equivalent velocities to 100 grains by weight/volume of Black Powder. More take 85 gr by VOLUME × 0.7 multiplier = 59.5 grains by WEIGHT.

So now it only takes 59.5 grains by WEIGHT of Blackhorn 209 to give you equivalent velocities to 100 grains by WEIGHT/VOLUME of Holy Black Powder.

Now knowing this, we can chart things by velocity equivalents, and a more apples to apples approach when charting your bang for the buck.

So when charting 50 grains of Black Powder by WEIGHT/VOLUME, it only takes 42.5 grains by VOLUME x 0.7 multiplier = 29.75 grains by WEIGHT of Blackhorn 209 to get you there, as far as equivalent velocity.

A lot of this has been hashed out over the years, starting bank in April 2008 when Blackhorn 209 was first released to the public. No one is denying it costs more up front to shoot Blackhorn 209, but once you figure in all the spit-patching between shots and dealing with the more corrosive Black Powder, takes more by weight to equal velocities, things start to clear up.

VOLUME to VOLUME, Blackhorn 209 needs to be reduced by 15% for equivalent velocities to Black Powder.

WEIGHT to WEIGHT, Blackhorn 209 needs to be reduced by an additional 0.7 multiplier after figuring out equivalent VOLUME for equivalent WEIGHTS to Black Powder.

So take 100 grains VOLUME/WEIGHT of BLack Powder = 85 grains by VOLUME Blackhorn 209 x 0.7 multiplier = 59.5 grains WEIGHT of Blackhorn 209.

So you chart indicating the cost of Blackhorn 209 as Compared to Black Powder is not an apples to apples conversion. If you want to make it close to the same, take 50 grains of Black Powder vs only 29.75 grains weight to calculate your VELOCITY bang for the buck.

Blackhorn 209 is not a direct conversion powder to Black Powder by either WEIGHT or VOLUME. Just like Triple Se7en loose powders are not as well. Triple Se7en is also 15 % more energetic by VOLUME than Black Powder, and is also a less dense powder. The multiplier to convert Triple Se7en from VOLUME to WEIGHT is roughly 0.777, depending on FFG or FFFG. So if 100 grains Black Powder by WEIGHT/VOLUME = 85 grains by VOLUME Triple Se7en FFG, then 85 gr VOLUME × 0.777 multiplier = 66.045 grains by WEIGHT of Triple Se7en for equivalent velocities to Black Powder.

This may be confusing to some, but by no means are any BP Substitutes a direct conversion to Black Powder by either VOLUME or WEIGHT. I don't want someone to think he can just weigh out charges of the powders thinking he has a safe equivalent to Black Powder, when he absolutely does NOT!

It also isn't costing him nearly as much per shot as your chart indicates, when it only takes roughly 59.5 % by WEIGHT of Blackhorn 209 to do the same thing as Black Powder.
EDIT: Sorry, this was originally typed up on the phone, and obvious spelling errors, hopefully corrected.

If it takes more by volume of black horn to equal same as black, which 100 grn. volume = 100 grn by weight, black horn can't be more dense.

If you can show me where I said that, I'll show you an error. Found it! You are correct, that should be less dense. I'm the one that was more dense in that sentence.Thank you for pointing that out. I'll go back and fix it.

It only takes 85% of Blackhorn 209 by VOLUME, or 59.5% of Blackhorn 209 by WEIGHT to equal Black Powder by WEIGHT and VOLUME. Black Powder is more dense than both Triple Se7en and Blackhorn 209. The Black Mag'3 I used to shoot years ago was even more dense than Black Powder @ approximately 105-108 grains By WEIGHT for a 100 grain VOLUME equivalent.

Thanks again for pointing that out. Hope that clears that up.

 

[52Bore]

Re: Cost of Powder

At lunch today I took my daughter to eat, just happened to be near our local gun store. Went in and bought my first can of BH209 - $42.46 including tax.
Came home, set my Volume powder measure to 90 (figured both BP and BH know this amount). Weighed the first 10 on my RCBS scale and the averaged 63.5gr. Since I already had 10, I completely emptied the can, one Volume charge at a time - poured it in just like you would at the range. Yes, I had some kernels fall to the ground, but in the end of the BH209 can I had 66.5 charges of 90gr Vol. So, I'll say 67 charges of 90gr by Vol.
Here is more math:
67 charges X 63.5gr average weight = 4254.5gr. That's how many grains were in this can - the can did say 10oz (I don't have a scale to know the can actually had 10oz) In the previous calculations I posted 10oz/16oz = 0.625lb.
7000gr x 0.625 = 4375gr. This can only had 4254gr .But, since that's only 121gr difference -I'm OK.

Like the chart using 10oz = 4375gr divided by 63.5gr (avg weight of 90gr Volume) = 68.8 shots. This is only 1.8 charges from the 67 I actually got out of the can.
$42 cost divided by 68.8 = 61 cents
The chart I made showed cost of powder is $42, your shooting 65gr weight charge, it cost you 62 cents.

If I'm wrong, I'll be the first to admit and apologize for an incorrect post of data- so far I'm sticking to my chart and data.

 

[451 whitworth]

Re: Cost of Powder

80gr of BH209 by volume produced almost 1450fps with a No-Excuses 460gr conical in my 45cal. Roughly 25.5" working bore

Thats a heck of a thumper load.

60gr by volume produced around 1250fps.

That's interesting. It takes 90.0gr by volume of Goex in my White .451 with a 475gr. bullet to get 1275 fps. I always thought the Blackhorn price was ridiculous but now I see it's not quite as bad as I thought. Not that it matters as my 12 traditional rifles and 4 plunger #11 cap inlines wouldn't work with it anyway. And I am lucky i can swing by Graf's in Mexico, MO and get Goex for $16.59 a pound. Their Blackhorn price is $35.