Hangfire/no fire help

[dhnut1973]

I just bought a T/C Renegade 54 cal and I had a few issues at the range today. I cleaned the barrel real good when I got it, but I’m not sure how clean the fire channel was.
At the range today it started being sluggish at about the 5 round mark. Then it wouldn’t fire until I took the nipple out and picked the channel.
What are your suggestions to rectify this condition? What’s the best nipple to use and what’s your range procedures to avoid hangfires?
I was using .015 pillow ticking patches, .530 RB, and 85gr Pyro RS.
Thanks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Magnum]

Maybe it needs a good cleaning initially. Patent breech might be loadedup. I’m sure guys will chime in about the steam clean method. Seems to scrub the crud!

 

[Idaholewis]

I just bought a T/C Renegade 54 cal and I had a few issues at the range today. I cleaned the barrel real good when I got it, but I’m not sure how clean the fire channel was.
At the range today it started being sluggish at about the 5 round mark. Then it wouldn’t fire until I took the nipple out and picked the channel.
What are your suggestions to rectify this condition? What’s the best nipple to use and what’s your range procedures to avoid hangfires?
I was using .015 pillow ticking patches, .530 RB, and 85gr Pyro RS.
Thanks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Are you Swabbing good Between Shots? After you shoot, and Swab your rifle, Before you start to load again, Take a Sheet of White paper or an old target and pin it to the Ground somehow, Put a cap on the nipple and point your barrel Straight down at that sheet of paper and Pop it off, You will be AMAZED at how much Crud breaks loose from the Fire Channel/Patented Breech and ends up trickling out on to that sheet of paper! Now go ahead and Reload, When you dump your powder charge in, keep your Barrel pointed up Good and straight and TAP TAP TAP on the Stock to help settle a good amount of powder under the nipple. She’ll Go BOOM now :yeah:

 

[Idaholewis]

As Magnum stated in his post about Steam Cleaning, I started doing that quite sometime ago and it REALLY REALLY Gets with the Cleaning!! But i only do it 1 time to a “New to me” Barrel just to make sure the Fire Channel/Patented Breech is super Clean, then i just Clean my barrels normal like in my Cleaning Video.

These little Handheld Steam Cleaners are fairly Cheap (About 30 bucks or so) and they make several different models

Here is my Handheld Steam cleaner attached to my Old Stainless GM LRH 50 Cal Barrel, in this photo i was Using a Bored out “Flush Nipple” with a Piece of high heat Silicone tubing, I have since done away with the Flush Nipple And Tubing, you can just as easily, and effectively point the Nozzle of the little Steam cleaner in the Nipple Hole and BLAST hot steam through it that way :yeah:

This came from an Old TC Renegade that i was POSITIVE i had thoroughly clean (i did have the bore very clean) But after getting my little Handheld Steam Cleaner i went after all of my barrels to get the Fire Channel/Patented Breech of each 1 thoroughly clean, This is what i got from the Old Renegade’s Fire Channel/Patented Breech

 

[dhnut1973]

Thanks for all the advice. I’m not new to muzzleloading by any means, but I’ll be the first to admit I don’t know everything. Currently I swab every 3 or so shots, but I’ll change my routine up thanks to the advice. I cleaned it real good in a bucket of hot soapy water after my range trip today as well.
How did soldiers keep these things firing reliably? I can’t imagine they had time to swab and bust a cap between shots?
I’m also gonna look into a steam cleaner to get her really clean as well. Idaho your videos were also very helpful.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Idaholewis]

How did soldiers keep these things firing reliably? I can’t imagine they had time to swab and bust a cap between shots?

I’ve wondered the same thing many times, there lives depended on their rifles! They no doubt had a routine down :yeah: But I’ve read where they found Battlefield guns that had been loaded several times on top of eachother, So things weren’t perfect that’s for sure. Sad to think about that!!

I am all about the best possible accuracy i can get out of my Guns, I Swab Between every shot and then point Straight down and Pop 1 Cap straight Through to “Break” the Crud loose in the Fire Channel/Patented Breech (So Each shot cost me 2 Caps) I do this for consistency, i want every shot as close as i can possibly make it to the 1 before it. I use Blue Windex with ammonia, and 91% isopropyl alcohol at about 50/50 Mix to Swab Between shots, Straight Blue Windex would be just fine, Anything to wipe the Fouling out and keep the Bore consistent.

This 32” Green Mountain 1:18 Twist barrel of mine is VERY similar to what you describe above and is what taught me to Pop the Cap straight through. I could get 3-4 Shots off and it would start to Hangfire, and continually get worse to the point of NOT FIRING. I tried EVERYTHING with it, HEAVY Steam Cleaning, 1/8” Drill bit turned by Hand Through the Side Cleanout, some of what i did helped, but stil didn’t cure it. After dumping the powder charge and TAP TAP TAP on the Stock i pulled the Nipple to see if the powder was getting there? As I suspected NOT, Just a few Grains is all i could see, So there was no doubt that it was coming from the Fire Channel being restricted from fouling and not letting the powder through. That is when i decided to try popping a Cap straight through it after i had swabbed to see if the “Concussion” From the Cap going off would break the Crud loose? It worked!! I was SHOCKED at all the Flaky Crud that came trickling out on the Ground, I dumped my powder charge in and TAP TAP TAP again, unscrewed the nipple and checked, Sure Enough the Powder was packed up good under the Nipple :yeah: Since i started the above procedure (Popping the Cap straight through) I have yet to have a Hangfire in this Barrel. None of my other barrels are like this, or at least near this bad.

 

[dhnut1973]

How did soldiers keep these things firing reliably? I can’t imagine they had time to swab and bust a cap between shots?

I’ve wondered the same thing many times, there lives depended on their rifles! They no doubt had a routine down :yeah: But I’ve read where they found Battlefield guns that had been loaded several times on top of eachother, So things weren’t perfect that’s for sure. Sad to think about that!!

I am all about the best possible accuracy i can get out of my Guns, I Swab Between every shot and then point Straight down and Pop 1 Cap straight Through to “Break” the Crud loose in the Fire Channel/Patented Breech (So Each shot cost me 2 Caps) I do this for consistency, i want every shot as close as i can possibly make it to the 1 before it. I use Blue Windex with ammonia, and 91% isopropyl alcohol at about 50/50 Mix to Swab Between shots, Straight Blue Windex would be just fine, Anything to wipe the Fouling out and keep the Bore consistent.

This 32” Green Mountain 1:18 Twist barrel of mine is VERY similar to what you describe above and is what taught me to Pop the Cap straight through. I could get 3-4 Shots off and it would start to Hangfire, and continually get worse to the point of NOT FIRING. I tried EVERYTHING with it, HEAVY Steam Cleaning, 1/8” Drill bit turned by Hand Through the Side Cleanout, some of what i did helped, but stil didn’t cure it. After dumping the powder charge and TAP TAP TAP on the Stock i pulled the Nipple to see if the powder was getting there? As I suspected NOT, Just a few Grains is all i could see, So there was no doubt that it was coming from the Fire Channel being restricted from fouling and not letting the powder through. That is when i decided to try popping a Cap straight through it after i had swabbed to see if the “Concussion” From the Cap going off would break the Crud loose? It worked!! I was SHOCKED at all the Flaky Crud that came trickling out on the Ground, I dumped my powder charge in and TAP TAP TAP again, unscrewed the nipple and checked, Sure Enough the Powder was packed up good under the Nipple :yeah: Since i started the above procedure (Popping the Cap straight through) I have yet to have a Hangfire in this Barrel. None of my other barrels are like this, or at least near this bad.

Interesting information on the battlefield rifle findings.
I hope you don’t think I was questioning your methods for consistent firing, I was just curious how this problem of fowling was handled back in the hay day of percussion guns. I have some of the T/C prestaturated cleaning patches, but I also plan to mix up some windex and alcohol to use.
I also read your sticky about T/C’s patented breech and with the angle and length of the fire channel, it makes busting a cap between shots make a lot more sense.
Thanks for all the help you’ve provided and enjoy that GM LRH barrel. I looked at them years ago and didn’t pull the trigger on buying one, sadly, now they’re gone.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Idaholewis]

I hope you don’t think I was questioning your methods for consistent firing, I was just curious how this problem of fowling was handled back in the hay day of percussion guns.

No, Not at all! I was just telling you how i learned, and why i started Popping 1 Cap straight through the barrel of this 1:18 Twist, I use Real Blackpowder (Swiss) For some reason this Particular barrel Chokes itself out after a Few shots and starts acting up Like the Problem you were having in your a Original post. I am Confident there is nothing wrong in the Fire channel of this barrel, it is Opened very well (I have even seen Pictures of it from a Bore Camera) After my Cleaning process When i run a steady stream of water Down the Muzzle it RUSHES out of the Nipple Hole as fast, or faster than any barrel i have.

I see you are using Pyrodex RS, The other thing to be aware of is your Nipple Flash Hole size with the Substitute Powders, Good example is the nipples i use, and i swear by, they are called Treso’s, i get them from Buffalo Arms Co, Treso Nipples have a tiny .028 Flash Hole which works STELLAR with Real Blackpowder, But will NOT Reliably Ignite the Substitute Powders Like Pyrodex and Triple 7, You can stil use The Treso Nipples but you need to drill the flash hole out Slightly larger(Sabotloader has told me .031-.032 to get Reliable Ignition) I just recently tested a nipple i opened to .032 with Triple 7 and it worked Flawless :yeah:

Treso/Ampco nipples are by FAR the best i have ever seen, they have LONG outlasted all others i have tried. The Stainless RMC nipples were Only good for about 30 Shots. I have WAY over 100 Shots on 3-4 of These Treso/Ampco Nipples and they are stil going STRONG, in fact they show very little to No wear :yeah: Big Heavy Conicals, and Stout Powder Charges get rough on Nipple Flash Holes

 

[dhnut1973]

I hope you don’t think I was questioning your methods for consistent firing, I was just curious how this problem of fowling was handled back in the hay day of percussion guns.

No, Not at all! I was just telling you how i learned, and why i started Popping 1 Cap straight through the barrel of this 1:18 Twist, I use Real Blackpowder (Swiss) For some reason this Particular barrel Chokes itself out after a Few shots and starts acting up Like the Problem you were having in your a Original post. I am Confident there is nothing wrong in the Fire channel of this barrel, it is Opened very well (I have even seen Pictures of it from a Bore Camera) After my Cleaning process When i run a steady stream of water Down the Muzzle it RUSHES out of the Nipple Hole as fast, or faster than any barrel i have.

I see you are using Pyrodex RS, The other thing to be aware of is your Nipple Flash Hole size with the Substitute Powders, Good example is the nipples i use, and i swear by, they are called Treso’s, i get them from Buffalo Arms Co, Treso Nipples have a tiny .028 Flash Hole which works STELLAR with Real Blackpowder, But will NOT Reliably Ignite the Substitute Powders Like Pyrodex and Triple 7, You can stil use The Treso Nipples but you need to drill the flash hole out Slightly larger(Sabotloader has told me .031-.032 to get Reliable Ignition) I just recently tested a nipple i opened to .032 with Triple 7 and it worked Flawless :yeah:

Treso/Ampco nipples are by FAR the best i have ever seen, they have LONG outlasted all others i have tried. The Stainless RMC nipples were Only good for about 30 Shots. I have WAY over 100 Shots on 3-4 of These Treso/Ampco Nipples and they are stil going STRONG, in fact they show very little to No wear :yeah: Big Heavy Conicals, and Stout Powder Charges get rough on Nipple Flash Holes

Thanks for the info, I’ll check out the Treso/Ampco nipples. I had no idea the nipples needed to be replaced so often. With this rifle being new to me I have no idea how old or how many shots are on the nipple that came with it.
I am going to the range again today so I will use your suggestions and I’m sure I’ll have much better results. Thanks again.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[muzzlestuffer]

You have to check flash hole with a plug gauge but your better off just putting a new amoco nipple on it. Can you get a pipe cleaner thru the flash channel ? I would do a flush on the flash channel and run a pipe cleaner back and forth thru the channel soaked in some type of cleaner of your choice. I also make that part of my regular cleaning process fyi. Hope you get her going !

 

[Renegadehunter]

I struggle with pushing fouling down into the flame channel with my Renegade as well. I have to swab between shots for accuracy to stay consistent (even though I have a fairly tight patch/ball combo), and after several shots I have a fail to fire. The cap will pop but no ignition. When that happens I'm 100% successful by just removing the nipple and putting a little powder in and then replacing and shooting it.

I recently read about a method that I'd really like to try, just haven't had the chance yet. So the method is to load your next powder charge and then seat the next patch/ball with a jag on your rod and put a swab patch on the jag while doing so. This keeps the fouling from being pushed into the flame channel. It should also maintain the fouling consistency.
I also think with a sub powder you should probably open your nipple up a bit like Idaholewis suggested.

 

[Idaholewis]

Thanks for the info, I’ll check out the Treso/Ampco nipples. I had no idea the nipples needed to be replaced so often. With this rifle being new to me I have no idea how old or how many shots are on the nipple that came with it.
I am going to the range again today so I will use your suggestions and I’m sure I’ll have much better results. Thanks again.

As the Projectile is being pushed out of the barrel there are Gasses escaping back through the Nipple Flash Hole (Called “Blow Back”) The heavier the Projectile the More “Blowback” and the Harder it is on the Nipple over time. Here is where the Treso/Ampcos come in, They hold up EXTREMELY well!! I Shoot a LOT, and all Large Lead Conical bullets from 350 Grains, to 650 Grains, So far i have not Wore a Treso out, The Treso Nipples are the ONLY way to go in my opinion. Get yourself a New Treso 1/4-28 TC nipple, and it will last you a Loooong Time :yeah: Just Remember if you plan to Shoot the Substitute Powders such as Pyrodex and Triple 7 you will need to Enlarge the Flash Hole to .031, .032 Or you will almost guaranteed have Hangfire after Hangfire, The Substitute Powders Require more Spark/Heat. Do you have access to Real Blackpowder by chance? If so, Get yourself some and try it, NIGHT AND DAY difference! Real Blackpowder just can’t be beat in my opinion. Be precise about Drilling a Nipple Flash Hole out! You don’t want to go to Large or you will get excessive “Blow Back” that Can/Will Push your Hammer back to Half Cock or Worse, Take a set of Dial Calipes and measure The tiny Wire Drill bits, look for .032

I tried Pyrodex and i didn’t like it at all! Even with an enlarged Flash Hole of around .033 i had Hangfires, I used the rest of my Can of Pyrodex as a side of my Driveway Road Flare :lol: Most recently i tried Triple Seven, and it Went off GOOD everytime.

 

[dhnut1973]

Well I went to the range today to see how the thorough cleaning I did and the tips I learned here would work out. I’m happy to report that I had no hangfire issues at all.
The only thing I need to fix now are the sights. I replaced the originals with some Williams fiber optic sights I had laying around. Unfortunately, they must be for my CVA Hawken because lowered all the way they were still 4-5” high at 50 yards. I would like to get a globe and tang sight eventually.
Anyway, thanks again for all the responses to my questions and here’s a pic of my rifle. This one has a more polished blue on the barrel than my 50 Renegade. It doesn’t have the warnings or say Renegade on the barrel so I guess the blueing was different on the earlier guns?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Idaholewis]

Well I went to the range today to see how the thorough cleaning I did and the tips I learned here would work out. I’m happy to report that I had no hangfire issues at all.

:yeah:

 

[HC]

Does your rifle have a “K” at the start of the serial # ? If so then it was a kit rifle. That would explain the more polished blued barrel and not being marked Renegade.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[dhnut1973]

Does your rifle have a “K” at the start of the serial # ? If so then it was a kit rifle. That would explain the more polished blued barrel and not being marked Renegade.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

No it doesn’t have a k, just numbers.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[HC]

May be an aftermarket barrel. Maybe someone with more knowledge of TC s could enlighten us.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[dhnut1973]

May be an aftermarket barrel. Maybe someone with more knowledge of TC s could enlighten us.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I don’t know, it does say Thompson Center, it doesn’t have “Renegade” or the warning statements though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[HC]

May be an aftermarket barrel. Maybe someone with more knowledge of TC s could enlighten us.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I don’t know, it does say Thompson Center, it doesn’t have “Renegade” or the warning statements though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I looked at one of mine and it too is just like yours.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Idaholewis]

This got me to thinking about my Kit Hawken in .54 Cal, I bought this Rifle from a Local friend that had bought the Kit New Many years ago and Put it together himself, He did an Awesome Job Putting it together, it looks as good or better than Any Factory put together TC Hawken Rifle i have seen. He couldn’t remember the Year he bought it, but thought it was very Late 80s, early 90s? Anyway, The Rifle shoots OUTSTANDING But i chose to use this Particular stock for my new Rice .45 Cal “Drop in” Barrel, I tucked the Stock NON QLA Muzzle .54 Barrel Away These last few Posts got me to thinking about the Barrel Markings? I just now Grabbed it to look, This one was DEFINITELY a Kit Gun with the Serial No. starting with a K, This barrel DOES have the Blackpowder Warning, And it also says HAWKEN on it.

TC did a few odd things over the years that can make these Rifles hard to tell Age, One thing i have found that the Older guns seem to Share is the “High Hammer spur” and the Newer models seem to have the “Low Hammer Spur” TC made a few Variations of the High, and Low Hammer Spurs. Forum member bubba.50 will probably know more about this

In your Renegade pics yours looks to be the “Low Hammer Spur” like this

Here is an Old “High Hammer Spur”