Hod did the word "Grain" become a volume term???

[DocBob]

As a scientist by training I tend to be a bit of a stickler about using terms correctly...hammered into me while doing research.

The definition of GRAIN is:
▸ noun: 1/7000 pound; equals a troy grain or 64.799 milligrams
▸ noun: 1/60 dram; equals an avoirdupois grain or 64.799 milligrams

So how did we start using this term as a volume measurement???
This can definitely be confusing to us newbies when we hear someone say they use 100 grains of a particular powder.
Then I ask how they weight it?
No, no, no, thats the volume, it only weights about 80 grains!!!
WHAT?!?! You just used the same word to mean two diferent things!!!...not to mention if I hadn't asked I could have had a dangerous situation on my hands.

Sorry, just curious how this term got such an "ingrained" misuse???
...Get it, inGRAINed!!!

...sorry I couldn't resist. :lol:

 

[Patrick White]

It goes back to blackpowder. It was commonly measured by volume back when muzzleloaders were the only guns. When ML's started coming back they kept the practice. With blackpowder volume and weight is roughly the same. The difference has become greater with the invention of the substitutes. Now there are volumetric grains and weight grains. It can be confusing.

 

[Anonymous]

I like yer sig line,,Pat.. :wink: 8)

 

[Grouse]

If you dont understand the difference between volume and weight, you should get help from your local sporting goods store. Most should be able to help you.

 

[cayuga]

A grain is a very precise unit of measurement. A grain is 1/7000th of a pound ... so you have 7000 grains to a pound.

I can not say where the word came from for sure. It was explained to me many years ago like this. Black powder used to me made in mills, the same kind where grains were ground down to make flour, etc... These mills ground the wet hard gun powder down into small granules of powder, so a unit of measure of powder was call a grain. Also they used to forbid powder mills anywhere near city limits because of the danger of explosion of course.

But I do know a grain is a unit of measure.

 

[DocBob]

Grouse, I understand the terms perfectly...there in lies the problem and why it can be confusing though...Grain is by definition a weight term being used to describe a volume...a volume that is not a constant. This is like saying I am 200 pounds VOLUME when I actually WEIGH 180 pounds...so what substance did I use to make the weight term of pound now also mean a volume...well lets say I used water... then the way I should have stated it is I am "200 pounds volume water equivalent" this then defines all terms.

That is what we are actually doing with our powder charges. 100 GRAIN VOLUME blackpowder equivalent of Triple Seven is actually about 80 GRAINS WEIGHT...We've just shortened it to say 100 grains 777, but that is technically not correct. Other industries have done this and it becomes "standard" right or wrong, and therefore accepted as long as the term is adequately defined.

If I only ask you how much volume is 120 grains, nobody can answer that question without saying 120 grains of what...on the other hand if I ask how much weight is 120 grains, that anyone can answer because it is a constant. To be a term for volume, it would have to be a constant term interchangable with other terms for volume, or to be a term for weight it must be interchangeable with other terms for weight ie: a pound is always equal to certain number of milligrams which is always equal to a certain number of grains, etc... But the volume term GRAIN is not equal to any general term for volume, it is not equal to any number of milliliters for example. It is only equal to a certain volume of a specific substance, in this case blackpowder. :shock:

It's easy enough to understand, all I asked was how it came to be? Thanks Patrick for the background...that was what I was looking for!

And Cayuga, interesting anecdote...sounds quite plausible...and you are correct it is a unit of WEIGHT measurement. :wink:

And sorry for the long-winded response...I told you I was a scientific researcher in a past life.

 

[MLKeith]

The grain that is referred to while specifying loads for the muzzleloader is actually a volume measurement that has been derived from the weight of the equivalent amount of black powder. So what we are really saying is that we want to load an 80grain by weight of black powder VOLUME with an eqivalent VOLUME of some substitute powder that has been developed to give approximately the same performance and pressure that the original 80grains by weight of black powder would. I'm sure that really makes everything clear now; doesn't it????? PS: I think Dave has it correct as to the term "grain" coming from a similar weight of some type of grain (most likely a wheat kernel). If I could just find a wheat kernel to weigh I could confirm it. And yes; I also belong to the DWB group which probably explains what is wrong with my head.

 

[Underclocked]

Doc is not at all suggesting he doesn't know the difference, he's suggesting it is a misuse of the unit - and it is. As has been stated, black powder was and still is often measured by volume. The volumetric measures should be marked in some standard unit of volume as well as the grain equivalent measure (and some few are).

It's does create misundertanding. The original standard was a volume of true black in ffg granule size required to weigh exactly X in grains. That volume X was then used to mark, often with serious lack of precision, tubes (and other containers) in grains as a function of that volume. Most volumetric measures set to 100 grains will still yield a weight in grains (of ffg black powder) very close to 100 grains - though rarely would they be dead on or agree with the next maker's measure. Still, it was a real step forward from holding a ball in your cupped palm and pouring powder until the ball was covered to determine load.

Blurry enough in itself, but now add in subs which contain different energy levels per volume than does black, equate their energy production by mistated volumetric equivalents that have NOTHING to do with their weights and the picture gets even fuzzier. Now compound that confusion by considering the substitute powder, loose volume equivalents of pellets - and you begin to wonder why more people do not blow their heads off.

There is nothing at all wrong with actually weighing your charges for consistency. Gun manufacturers still spec their rifles in the same old terms and often add pellet limits as well. In fact, most specify both just for clarity. :wink:

So far as modern muzzleloading, it is of no real consequence so long as EVERYONE knows whether a person is using grains weight or grains volume when they state a load. Some few are very particular when stating a load in grains as to whether they mean volume or weight. More should be.

 

[Underclocked]

an shuddup Keith, don' let out ar secrutz.

 

[lane]

Doc

Just to help clarify our forum conversations, You will see us post quite often in these terms:

Grains Weight = gW

Grains Volume = gV


Like 68gW of BlackHorn 209 = 100gV

or

100gV American Pioneer Powder 3Fg (APP) = 92gW

Hope this helps

.

 

[Anonymous]

That guyz still screamin'.... :d'oh!:

 

[txhunter58]

You have hit a real nerve that is a problem for almost every newbie out there. They get on these muzzy forums and get the impression that 100 grains means a weighed charge. And the danger comes in when someone wants to be "precise" and starts measuring out 150 grains of 777 and shooting it!!!

It gets even more confusing when you add the factor that 777 is NOT equivalent to the same volume of black powder, it is 15% more powerful, so even if they know it is a volume measurement, they may measure 150 grains of loose 777 and shoot it in their "magnum" rifle. So if they are shooting 150 grains of volume, they are really shooting the equivalent of 172.5 gr of black powder. I shudder to think of the actual equivalent if they were to measure out 150 grains by weight.

Every owners manual that comes with a new gun should explain this concept (at least the one that came with my Omega did), but not everyone reads the fine print.

Bottom line is that comparing it by volume and calling it simply "grains" is not going to change and we are too lazy to always write out: "100 gr of volume blackpowder equivalent"

That is a long way of saying I don't have a solution for the problem, because I can assure you that in the next year, a newbie will weigh out a charge of 150 grains of 777 and shoot it in his gun.

 

[DocBob]

Wow, I've really opened a can of worms with what I thought was a simple history question. Good discussion though.

lane, if everyone did what you suggested, that would certainly help (gV or gW) but as you know, the majority of the posts just say something like "I shoot 80 gn 777" or "Start with 100 gn Pyrodex", etc.

I tend to be overly analytical at times and thankfully picked up on the volume vs weight discrepancy quickly. As txhunter said though when someone says to a newbie that they shoot 150 gn of 777, and they have a scale that measures in grains, that's all the explanation that's needed...off to the range with Weighed out 150 grain by weight charges (isn't 777 about 25% greater by weight than BP, so something in the neighborhood of 190 grain BP equivalent!!! Yikes!)

Hopefully if nothing else comes from this discussion, someone who didn't realize the difference might read this forum before they head to the range and save themselves a potential headache...No pun intended!!!

 

[Semisane]

f you don't understand the difference between volume and weight, you should get help from your local sporting goods store. Most should be able to help you.

You must have a different quality of sporting goods store in your area Grouse. In my area, you'd be lucky if someone in a sporting goods store didn't tell you to pour some powder in a saucer and count out 100 "grains".

 

[redpep]

Anybody got time to do a bar graph showing the difference between 100gv black powder and all the other subs equalling it?

 

[Grouse]

You must have a different quality of sporting goods store in your area Grouse. In my area, you'd be lucky if someone in a sporting goods store didn't tell you to pour some powder in a saucer and count out 100 "grains".

Hunting and shooting is my hobby. I find the people who know. I'm sure not going to guess on something i dont know about.

 

[big6x6]

lane, if everyone did what you suggested, that would certainly help (gV or gW) but as you know, the majority of the posts just say something like "I shoot 80 gn 777" or "Start with 100 gn Pyrodex", etc.

In the muzzleloader/blackpowder world it is UNDERSTOOD when one speaks of a 100gr load that it is by VOLUMETRIC measuring device. It ALWAYS has been this way...always will. When one actually weighs a powder charge and chooses to post this measurement, practically every post I've ever read will state "by weight." That is certainly clear enough for me.

 

[Critter]

Anybody got time to do a bar graph showing the difference between 100gv black powder and all the other subs equalling it?

Not a bar graph but it's something. http://www.curtrich.com/BPConversionSheet.htm

 

[MLKeith]

f you don't understand the difference between volume and weight, you should get help from your local sporting goods store. Most should be able to help you.

You must have a different quality of sporting goods store in your area Grouse. In my area, you'd be lucky if someone in a sporting goods store didn't tell you to pour some powder in a saucer and count out 100 "grains".

I also wonder about that one. One post I read said the guy at the counter said "we don't have any muzzleloading powder but any of this stuff should work". How about that one???? Being a reloader all of this seems of little importance to me as a long time ago I decided that making any mistakes with propellants or explosives could be very serious so I spent a lot of time learning. Unfortunately as stated some think jumping into muzzleloading does not require any learning. I think due to the large influx of low cost muzzleloaders and the states opening up muzzleloading seasons the number of "new" muzzleloaders does create a potential problem. Yes, being a reloader I weigh my charges to whatever volume vs. weight conversion that I determine. Hardly anything weighs what the grain number is. Have not weighed BH209 yet but I suspect it may be the leader of the light weight load pack especially since it has a hole in the middle. Sorry, I do run on sometimes, And no I won't SHUDDUP! (added note: I missed the thread started by Busta on weighing BH209 before I made the above comment). Now I am gone.