Horrible accuracy with 10ml-2.

[JimG]

Brand new Savage 10ml-2. Blued with plastic stock. Purchased laminate stock from Savage and that is the stock I'm using. Have tried 40grs of AA 5744 with the short black MMP sabots and .452 250 non mag XTP's with Win 209 primers. Also tried 43grs of IMR SR4759 with the MMP HPH-12 sabots and .452 250 non mag XTP's and Win 209 primer. Scope base/rings is the one piece Deadnuts and it is tight to the reciever. Scope was a Nikon Omega 1.65x5. I am going to try another scope tonight to see if the scope failed. Group size with any load is roughly 3-4 inches at 100 yards from a bench. I know of three other Savage 10ml-2's and they all shoot roughly 1-1.25" 3 shot groups at 100 yards. Any ideas as to what could be wrong?

I should add that I've read all the info in the manual and on all the 'net forums, including this one about tips to good accuracy with the Savage. So ventliner/breechplug cleaning, stock bolt torque, waiting between shots, etc is not new info to me.

 

[Grouse]

Sounds like you could have a bad ventliner even though its new.

 

[JimG]

I have tow factory breechplugs and a total of 5 ventliners. I'll try a different one tonight.

 

[Edwardamason]

Brand new Savage 10ml-2. Blued with plastic stock. Purchased laminate stock from Savage and that is the stock I'm using. Have tried 40grs of AA 5744 with the short black MMP sabots and .452 250 non mag XTP's with Win 209 primers. Also tried 43grs of IMR SR4759 with the MMP HPH-12 sabots and .452 250 non mag XTP's and Win 209 primer. Scope base/rings is the one piece Deadnuts and it is tight to the reciever. Scope was a Nikon Omega 1.65x5. I am going to try another scope tonight to see if the scope failed. Group size with any load is roughly 3-4 inches at 100 yards from a bench. I know of three other Savage 10ml-2's and they all shoot roughly 1-1.25" 3 shot groups at 100 yards. Any ideas as to what could be wrong?

I should add that I've read all the info in the manual and on all the 'net forums, including this one about tips to good accuracy with the Savage. So ventliner/breechplug cleaning, stock bolt torque, waiting between shots, etc is not new info to me.

Did you use the correct lenght screws for the factory Laminate stock? they are different. I think the Laminate requires a longer screw. They are available from Savage.

 

[GM54-120]

Correct.

Laminate and composite OEM Savage stocks use different screws.

 

[JimG]

Yes, I am using the right screws. Ordered them when I had the FFL order the stock.

 

[Edwardamason]

As suggested change the vent.

Check the Front Scope base screw and make sure it is not bottoming out against the barrel nut. Seen this a few times. The screw just needs to be shortened.

Very unusual to have that bad of degree of accuracy if everything is tight. I suspect the scope.

I would try the iron sights at 25 yards then 50 yards and determine if its the ML or the scope.

If it shoots with the iron sights fine you have narrowed the problem to the scope or mounts.

 

[JimG]

Last night I tried the following-

1. different scope, no change.
2. plastic stock instead of laminate, no change (yes they ARE the right screws!!).
3. different breech plug, no change.
4. different vent liner, no change.
5. waiting 1/2 hour between the last 4 shots, no change.

The base is a one piece unit and it is tight including the front screw. If I pull all 4 screws from the base and re-install only the front one, the base is tight so if the screw is bottoming out, it is still holding the base tight to the reciever. The base is short enough that it is not over lapping the barrel nut. I've heard certain bases don't sit flush if they overlap the nut. This is not the case with mine. I seriously doubt this rifle destroyed two Nikon Omega scopes that were previously mounted to two other centerfire rifles, one of which is a sub minute of angle rifle. Two other shooters have shot this Savage and neither of them can get it to group any tighter than about 3" CTC at 100. The more the rifle is shot the worse it gets. And yes it is cleaned after every shooting session. Last night at 50 yards the best group I got was over 4" (didn't bother to measure it). At this point I give up.

 

[ShawnT]

JimG,

While I don't have a Savage mz, I am wondering about a couple things after reading your post and the replies.

1. What do the groups look like (ie.. Stinging vertical, throwing them all over, etc.)?

2. If I recall the Savage has 3 action screws, is that correct? If so, is the center screw tight? If so you might try loosening it up.

3. Are either of the stocks Bedded? Poor bedding (or if the action just don't fit the stock properly) can cause an action to be in a bind when it is tightened up. Most rifles tend to throw shots all over when bedding is bad. You might try placing a small reference mark on the side of the action close to the barrel & next to the stock (you can use a marker, white out, or even a small peice of masking tape as a reference Mark). Remove the center action screw. Tighten up the forward and rear screws as you would normally. Then while watching the mark loosen the forward screw (leave the rear screw tight). If the mark moves away from the stock when you loosen the screw and moves back to the stock when you tightenthen it, that shows the bedding is not good and the action is being placed in a bind. I know this is very critical with centerfire rifles but it would not help an MZ of any type if the bedding is bad. I have seen this in a CF rifle I had that shot 6 inch groups due to the action being in a bind. When the bedding was corrected the rifle shot 1/2" groups when I did my part.

Just some thoughts.

 

[DW]

Barrel floated?
Tang floated?
The barrel nut is not going to be an issue but the recoil lug can cause major grouping problems if the base is touching the lug. There is a picture of a front base in contact with the lug in this link.

http://dougva.proboards.com/index.cgi?a ... 950&page=1

.458 bullets with a Harvester Black Crush Rib sabot or orange MMP sabot seem to do better in the ML II than .452 saboted bullets for many.

Hope you get it figured out.

 

[JimG]

Barrel is floated
Base is not touching the lug.
It is not stringing vertically or horizontally, it is throwing shots everywhere.
The Savage has two action screws, both are torqued to 25 inch pounds per spec.
No attempt has been made to improve apon the factory bedding.
What gets me is the more the rifle is shot the worse the accuracy is.

 

[ShawnT]

JImG wrote:

it is throwing shots everywhere.
The Savage has two action screws, both are torqued to 25 inch pounds per spec.
No attempt has been made to improve apon the factory bedding.
What gets me is the more the rifle is shot the worse the accuracy is.

This leads me to beleive that the rifle would benifit from a good bedding job, Pillars and Devcon would be my choice. Your explination is exactly what I have seen from centerfire rifles with very poor or no bedding. In the worst case I have seen I could see the action lift out of the stock about 1/8" when the front screw was loosened. I have heard some shooters saying that torquing the action screws made a difference. I can't say it does or don't help since I don't do it.

This is how I look at bedding. IF a stock does not provide a full contact and stress free platform for the action, then I cannot see how torquing would help much past just tightening the action to the same place each time the screws are loosened. If the stocks bedding area has and uneven area, not making full contact with the action, then when you tighten the screws you could be adding stress to the action (placing it in a bind), such as actually bowing the action when the screws are tightened. When you have a stress free bedded action, then the action is not bowed or stressed in anyway (direction) when the screws are tight, the action just sits flat in the stock when the screws are tighened. When it is right you can alternately loosen/tighten either of the screws and nothing moves.

Just my 2 cents FWIW.

 

[DW]

How high have you went up in charge weight?

 

[JimG]

Both stocks already have steel pillars in it from the factory.

 

[Mountainam]

JimG, If I read your post correctly, I have experienced the same results as you have. My 40+ years of reloading experience seemed to disagree with a lot of the factory's info and recommendations. I too NEVER could get ANY accuracy using .451 OR .452 dia. bullets. Also, NONE of their recommended powders shot worth spit. And the primer they recommended wouldn't even fit into my breechplug.

Here's what I come up with :

.458" bullets-- Hornady 325gr FTX or Remington Bulk 300gr HP's

MMP .50x.458" Orange sabots

Remington STS primers (normally the weakest primer that will set off the load will yield the tightest groups--just like a centerfire)

Alliant Re7 powder at 63grs (you can start at 60grs and work up)

Some of the other suggestions by the guys will take care of the mechanical aspects, but I don't believe you problem lies there.
Keep in mind that all rifles are individuals so what works for the majority of 10MLII owners won't always point the way for you.

Check your loading pressure by sending a saboted bullet down the bore with the breechplug removed while the buttstock rests on a bathroom scale. The scale should read 40+ pounds while the combo is moving. It's a different game with smokeless and most you've learned from shooting smokers needs to get pitched.

I've yet to have better accuracy with .452" bullets than .458". Also, many will disagree with me ,but bullets less than 300grs are too light for a .50 cal. to not be using a duplex load. A cased .50cal round is shooting 600+gr bullets, so even a 300gr bullet is stretching the rubber band.

You have a great rifle. Don't get discouraged and give up. If you have plastic sheering off the sabots while sending it down the bore like I did , we can get into firelapping and such. Good Shooting!

 

[GM54-120]

Thats one of my favorite loads too. 325gr FTX/63gr Reloder7/MMP Orange. This load isnt max but its more than enough for any deer to 200yards or beyond.

55-60gr of N120 also works well with 300-325gr bullets (if you can get it). Work up slowly to 60gr, it has a bit of recoil and is getting close to max. If your bore is on the loose side, you can use the Harvester Black Crushrib with 458s instead of the MMP Orange.

I use Fed209As but that is what seems to fit best in mine.

 

[hntbambi]

Just because the stock has pillars from the factory does not mean it does not need a bedding job. Even guns with aluminum bedding blocks need to be bedded for best accuracy.

You mentioned you know of others that shoot better. Is this with you shooting them or others shooting them?

 

[JimG]

Ok, I'm not trying to be difficult so bear with me here......

In my opinion, using Acraglas, Devcon, etc to bed a rifle should be used on a rifle that shoots well and you want it to shoot a bit better. Say in my case if my ML-10 shot 1.5" groups at 100 yards and I wanted to get it closer to 1" groups and tinkering with different loads was not doing it, then bedding the stock might help. But my Savage will not even shoot well enough to hunt whitetail deer at 100 yards. That accuracy or lack there of is that bad. No, I have not shot the other 3 ML-10's I know of in my area. But I have seen them shot and one of the owners has shot mine and is baffled. I don't pretend to be an expert marksman but I'm no rank beginner either. The two other men who have shot the rifle are both well experienced marksmen. Mountainam, I have the same problems with my breechplugs and primers as well. Savage sent me a different breechplug to try but it made no difference. I'll check loading pressure this weekend. The only other thing I can add is the sabots are in bad shape when I pick them up downrange. There is tearing of the petals at the base of the sabot (petals are still attatched though) and they just look bad. Really in rough shape compared to my old Knight or Huntsman.

 

[Edwardamason]

. Even guns with aluminum bedding blocks need to be bedded for best accuracy.

I shake in horror every time I read this from someone. Why go to the expense of buying a stock with aluminum bedding blocks only to ruin it by cutting out the very thing you are paying for>??????

 

[Mountainam]

JimG, Your sabots can look bad due to the fact that you are using fast burning smokeless. It doesn't really matter what they look like after they leave the barrel. My 10ML II loses ALL the petals with the MMP orange sabots, but the groups are under 3/4". even using a slower burning in comparison to what you've tried is STILL violently faster than ANY of the subs. There is no comparison, so don't even try to compare the two.

My rifle's bore was as rough as a corn cob and I could see the plastic being peeled off as I pushed the projectile down. That's why I mentioned the firelapping. I agree with your premise of the bedding deal. I think you have the mechanical aspects addressed. You need to move on to the ballistic tuning like bullet fit, loading pressure and a slower propellant as I mentioned above. You did mention that the more you shot the worse the rifle slings the rounds. Myself, I don't even shoot any of my smokeless ML rifles in this kind of heat. I wait until late September when temps are in the 50's or lower. You need very long waits between shots to prevent sabots from getting gummy and distorting. A problem not encountered in smokers. There are fellows on Doug's Message Board that make cooling rods to stick in the bore to lower the temps and waiting time between shots. Good luck on your accuracy quest!